Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

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schnitzel2k3
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Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm

Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/0 ... enues.html

:roll: :rolleyes:

*Updated title to the more poignant point of the article*

S.
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telex
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by telex » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:03 pm

So the CEO is actually responsible to the share holders and not junior FOs?

Tell those 777 FOs to go back to their KingAirs to send a message.
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by tailgunner » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:41 am

Quit flying. Get a law degree. Work your way up the corporate ladder on Bay Street.
Never bitch about the amount that successful people make. It is there for you as well, you just have to do it. Remember that there are scores of people pointing fingers at you, asking why you make what you do.
Rant over. I feel better. Thanks for listening ✌️
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am

<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

I just think it's funny and ironic the compensation during the boom times is only reflected in management.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'

Why do you think they commit you to 10 year deals? So it aligns with the good times? Hardly.

Enjoy being the cheapest labour on the international market.

<Rant over>

I hope to god I am wrong about my predictions and you guys get a stellar deal because it will raise the ceiling on all fronts.

S.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:16 am

When's the contract up? ACPA should have some serious bargaining capital. WJ has a pretty short contract, talk to their MEC and co-operate on collectively raising pay across the country, working conditions have a way to go too.
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by sanjet » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:05 am

CEO is responsible to the shareholder. Given the share earnings/revenue growth and keeping CASM under control, he deserves it.

As for pilots, it's up to the themselves *cough ACPA cough* to also get the compensation they deserve. But hey, during the last reopener, we voted to allow the expansion of B-scale operation with pretty much nothing in return, I guess we are ok keeping wages low.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by neophyte » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:46 pm

You’re a pilot, not a CEO (or C anything for that matter)

Get over it, go fly a plane somewhere.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by ogopogo » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:07 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm
Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.
Is the 777 harder to fly than the smaller jets?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by MarkyMark90 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 pm

Flat pay for the first 4 years isn't a bad idea. The bad idea here is how low that flat pay is. As a major airline, it's sad to see people required to drop their salary and WAVCON when joining a new company while going "up the ladder", if going to AC is considered going "up the ladder".

But on the other side, the offer and demand market would dictate that price and as long as some of us are ready to accept that, we will have those contracts.
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:31 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am
<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'
For a guy who speaks so highly of corporate flying you seem to care a lot about Air Canada. Bitterness maybe??? That pro or non-call still chapping your ass?

As far as tough times/belt tightening, what will happen to corporate guys in those times?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Boreas » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:55 pm

What is at play here goes beyond AC, beyond aviation.

We're marching into neo-feudalism at full speed!

Its pretty much a done deal when you have well indoctrinated peasants telling other peasants to Get over it, go back to you plow somewhere. :rolleyes:
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:03 pm

ogopogo wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:07 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm
Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.
Is the 777 harder to fly than the smaller jets?
Yes.
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:31 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am
<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'
For a guy who speaks so highly of corporate flying you seem to care a lot about Air Canada. Bitterness maybe??? That pro or non-call still chapping your ass?

As far as tough times/belt tightening, what will happen to corporate guys in those times?
Bitterness at the fact that AC wages hold back the whole industry and I can't vote to help without financially penalising myself to join the AC pilot group. I interviewed 3 years ago and had to turn it down because the salary differential was too great. Unfortunately that differential has only gotten worse.

The big problem I have is that, if the 'best' company in Canada, is the lowest paying company on an international scale, despite record revenues in a boom period, it has a detrimental effect on the rest of the Canadian industry.

As far as belt tightening we hope to lock onto ownership groups that can weather financial chaos. It doesn't always work, but neither do the airlines.

End of the day if the AC pilot group wins, I win and everyone is happy. The more this topic is discussed, the less likely it gets dropped or sacrificed in the next set of negotiations.

Thanks for chiming in yycjet.

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by telex » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:09 pm

Boreas wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:55 pm
What is at play here goes beyond AC, beyond aviation.

We're marching into neo-feudalism at full speed!

Its pretty much a done deal when you have well indoctrinated peasants telling other peasants to Get over it, go back to you plow somewhere. :rolleyes:
The CEO gets a raise after record revenue and the 777 FOs do not get a raise. Do I understand correctly that new hire 777 FOs understood what flat pay is and they do not get a raise when the CEO gets a raise?

Is this the textbook definition of your neo-feudalism?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by telex » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Schnitzel can you expand on this at all?

Image
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by ogopogo » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:49 am

telex wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:23 pm
Schnitzel can you expand on this at all?

Image

:-)

My question of course was firmly tongue-in-cheek, since we all know the answer is NO. My comment was really aimed at the fact that a) you got hired at AC, and that’s what you wanted; b) you knew the rules going in; c) by the luck of the draw, you got assigned to a freakin’ B-777, dude! How cool is that?; d) how’s it feel to have three weeks off every month?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:50 pm

Yes dude! You get to be the lowest paid 777 pilot on the earth!
Enjoy the three weeks off! Too bad you have no money to spend lol
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:18 pm

telex wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:23 pm
Schnitzel can you expand on this at all?

Image
I shouldn't have to. A jet as large as the 777, with as many crew and passengers as it normally caries, is significantly more challenging to operate than a light or medium sized business jet (something I would refer to as a small jet), hence the significant difference in experience required to operate it. Energy management on an aircraft weighing over 300 tons (in some cases) isn't as forgiving, preparation for ultra long haul operations takes years of experience to master the right decisions, emergency deviations and managing 300+ passengers. We don't get paid for the easy days, we get paid for when shit hits the fan.

S.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:13 pm

Lets just say that the average salary ( take away the top 2% ) is $60,000.00 before tax. An average pilot wage is $160,000.00 ( 10 years in ) A lawyer or doctor may make what the top end pilot would make $250-$300,000.00 +
WHY do people think that an EMPLOYEE like a CEO should make nearly 200 times the average wage and 50 times more than the top pilot or doctor.That is utterly absurd ! A private company owner can pocket as much or as little as he/she so desires, but an employee ? that is theft !
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by bobcaygeon » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:49 pm

J
corethatthermal wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:13 pm
Lets just say that the average salary ( take away the top 2% ) is $60,000.00 before tax. An average pilot wage is $160,000.00 ( 10 years in ) A lawyer or doctor may make what the top end pilot would make $250-$300,000.00 +
WHY do people think that an EMPLOYEE like a CEO should make nearly 200 times the average wage and 50 times more than the top pilot or doctor.That is utterly absurd ! A private company owner can pocket as much or as little as he/she so desires, but an employee ? that is theft !
Why is the CEO’s fault that they negotiated a better deal than the pilot? Calin is unique as the average tenure of a CEO is 4 years and you’re judged by your last quarter. Better make the cash fast as you’re usually on your a$$ fast. They don’t get to practice V1 cuts the day before the QA check. I’m an average pilot and as long as I bother to prep a little bit on a couple of pairings before sim I do just fine. I’m average at best. In the past I’ve negotiated a better contract than my equal with more vacation and every 2nd Friday off. Is that my fault? I got what I asked for. They asked for less and got that too.

I will agree that the differential is high but if they can negotiate it then I don’t see a problem.

The AC pay scale continues to get worse with status getting longer and pensions getting crappier than in the past despite record profits that one could only dream about just a few years ago. The part that sucks for the industry is that AC gets used as the benchmarks and ACPA is a cluster that doesn’t have a repeat full bone in its organization. It predictably follows union doctrine of the top ending getting what it wants and not looking after the bottom half.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by stormout » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 am

tailgunner, I actually agree with you. It's stupid to rant about how much people make since they don't steal...
Nobody would be richer if all that money was divided between everybody.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by corethatthermal » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:39 pm

I will agree that the differential is high but if they can negotiate it then I don’t see a problem.

The AC pay scale continues to get worse with status getting longer and pensions getting crappier than in the past despite record profits that one could only dream about just a few years ago. The part that sucks for the industry is that AC gets used as the benchmarks and ACPA is a cluster that doesn’t have a repeat full bone in its organization. It predictably follows union doctrine of the top ending getting what it wants and not looking after the bottom half
What a great irony, in 1 verse you say its ok for the big guy to take most of the $$$ and in the second sentence, you lament for the little guy Do you not see a connection there?
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by TheStig » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am
<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

I just think it's funny and ironic the compensation during the boom times is only reflected in management.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'

Why do you think they commit you to 10 year deals? So it aligns with the good times? Hardly.

Enjoy being the cheapest labour on the international market.

<Rant over>

I hope to god I am wrong about my predictions and you guys get a stellar deal because it will raise the ceiling on all fronts.

S.
This thread reeks of petty jealousy. But if you can't complain on the internet, where can you? Here's my rebuttal rant.

The pilot group was just paid their annual profit sharing, so they do in fact get to share the prosperity. The formula used to calculate the bonus is based on the same silly EBITAR metric that the Managers/Execs use. For what it's worth, half the pool of money is distributed evenly, the other half based on earnings.

HOW DARE the Chief Executive Officer of an 18 Billion dollar operation with over 30,000 employees make (slightly) more than Auston Matthews?!? (Remind me again how much his linemates earn?) Somebody call the TorontoStar! Damn Capitalism, why can't we be more like Cuba or Venezuela?

Congratulations to Calin Rovinescu, a little under half of his annual remuneration was share based, how would you feel about having half of your pay based on airline stock?

The collective agreement runs until 2024. You really think oil is going to spike? I believe we're headed for another recession if that's what you were alluding to. I've got to admit that when the next downturn hits I'd much rather be a pilot on a seniority list than an Executive (or a Corporate Pilot). In 2009 the airline had around 300 surplus pilots, 0 layoffs.

The average AC FO is earning around $150,000 a year despite the much maligned 4 year fixed rates, while the average Captains pay is over $250,000. There are lot of things everyone would pick and choose to change about the current collective agreement. You can hand pick a (very) few examples of fixed rate widebody FO's, but AC does not employ the lowest-cost pilots.

We're fortunate, as Canadians to have the access we do to the US market, but our countries are headed in opposite directions. Americans celebrate prosperity, Canadians seems to want to smother it. Don't get me wrong I'd love to be working under Delta's contract but maybe it's time we find benchmarks in a country with same 'shared values' Canadians have? Argentina? France? Poland? I don't know but maybe we need to start looking beyond the US?
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:57 am

TheStig wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am
<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

I just think it's funny and ironic the compensation during the boom times is only reflected in management.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'

Why do you think they commit you to 10 year deals? So it aligns with the good times? Hardly.

Enjoy being the cheapest labour on the international market.

<Rant over>

I hope to god I am wrong about my predictions and you guys get a stellar deal because it will raise the ceiling on all fronts.

S.
This thread reeks of petty jealousy. But if you can't complain on the internet, where can you? Here's my rebuttal rant.

The pilot group was just paid their annual profit sharing, so they do in fact get to share the prosperity. The formula used to calculate the bonus is based on the same silly EBITAR metric that the Managers/Execs use. For what it's worth, half the pool of money is distributed evenly, the other half based on earnings.

HOW DARE the Chief Executive Officer of an 18 Billion dollar operation with over 30,000 employees make (slightly) more than Auston Matthews?!? (Remind me again how much his linemates earn?) Somebody call the TorontoStar! Damn Capitalism, why can't we be more like Cuba or Venezuela?

Congratulations to Calin Rovinescu, a little under half of his annual remuneration was share based, how would you feel about having half of your pay based on airline stock?

The collective agreement runs until 2024. You really think oil is going to spike? I believe we're headed for another recession if that's what you were alluding to. I've got to admit that when the next downturn hits I'd much rather be a pilot on a seniority list than an Executive (or a Corporate Pilot). In 2009 the airline had around 300 surplus pilots, 0 layoffs.

The average AC FO is earning around $150,000 a year despite the much maligned 4 year fixed rates, while the average Captains pay is over $250,000. There are lot of things everyone would pick and choose to change about the current collective agreement. You can hand pick a (very) few examples of fixed rate widebody FO's, but AC does not employ the lowest-cost pilots.

We're fortunate, as Canadians to have the access we do to the US market, but our countries are headed in opposite directions. Americans celebrate prosperity, Canadians seems to want to smother it. Don't get me wrong I'd love to be working under Delta's contract but maybe it's time we find benchmarks in a country with same 'shared values' Canadians have? Argentina? France? Poland? I don't know but maybe we need to start looking beyond the US?
👍

Good on you 😁

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by MKIII » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:03 pm

You don’t get what you deserve...you get what you negotiate!
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Hilroy » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:56 pm

MKIII wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:03 pm
You don’t get what you deserve...you get what you negotiate!
One major thing is the representation in the negociation committee. Bunch of captains with 30+ years of seniority, I'm not sure it's the optimal panel to represent the interest of EVERY members, including juniors.

My comment is also applicable to other fields.
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