Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

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confusedalot
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by confusedalot » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:14 pm

ummmnh.....stupid as I am, hey I was born that way......

Is the big red pilot thing nothing more than getting the job, and cruising along with little effort to get to a top paying place in life that will guarantee you an upper class existence with zero jeopardy?

You can try to figure out all of the bullshit in running an airline for an alternative. Suspect you will be happy in collecting a pilot paycheck.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by '97 Tercel » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:34 pm

What?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloak » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm
Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/0 ... enues.html

:roll: :rolleyes:

*Updated title to the more poignant point of the article*

S.
Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share! Otherwise would it not make sense to fix one's own low pay BEFORE picketing at WestJet AGM in support of their brethren?!!
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Rezy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:50 pm

cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:43 pm
Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/0 ... enues.html

:roll: :rolleyes:

*Updated title to the more poignant point of the article*

S.
Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share! Otherwise would it not make sense to fix one's own low pay BEFORE picketing at WestJet AGM in support of their brethren?!!
What does the 4 years flat pay compare to first 4 years at WJ?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:39 am

cloak wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 am
If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share!
Not that I think you really care, and I'm against the 4 year flat, but for the sake of clarity and perspective, here's how it went...

When 4 year flat was negotiated:

- Year 1 & 2 were fixed pay every month at an even lower rate, it didn't matter how much you worked, you were paid about $40K/year... maybe even it was a little less...

- Year 3 & 4, there were a handful of guys who were able to hold formula pay as 320 FO, but most guys were either EMJ FO, or RP in the "pay group" roughly similar to the new "flat pay hourly rates".

-Widebody FO was ballpark 10 years seniority depending on type.

The idea was to ease the pain in the first 2 years, get a higher hourly rate, plus allow guys to work more to make more, draft/OT premiums etc.

The cost was selling out formula pay on the handful of guys that would move to 320 FO in years 3/4.

ACPA just looked at the landscape as it was that day and it was balanced, it gave the guys in the first couple years a lift plus the upside of being able to earn more, OT, premiums, etc. But they potentially traded 2 years of 320 FO formula pay to get it...

Of course the company could foresee that eventually they would have huge shortages, wide open bids into the highest formula pay FO seats for new hires... they knew exactly what the benefit was to them on this... nobody at the ACPA table could imagine that though... that's unfortunately a common theme, good intentions, seems like a good idea at the time, but can't appreciate the changing landscape...

I'll remind you also that AC Pilots voted that TA down with the 4 year flat and loss of DB pension to new hires. The TA1 leadership was recalled/resigned... Only to later torpedo us (group of 27) which led to the Ratt and Harper colluding with Rovinescu in FOS to shove it down out throats anyway.

You can always bid CA to escape it... seems to stand for now. We'll see what happens when the A220s come and the Max-mess gets sorted out... but those 2&3 year upgrades can't last forever I suppose.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by mixturerich » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:08 pm

[/quote]

Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share!
[/quote]

Who needs to justify/explain it? AC certainly doesn’t.

My personal justification would be that four years isn’t really that long in the grand scheme of things. There’s so much money to be made down the road. The rest of Canada doesn’t have a lot of good alternatives to what a long term AC career has to offer.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by goleafsgo » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by skypirate88 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm

goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by goleafsgo » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:38 pm

skypirate88 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm
goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.
Thanks for clearing that up
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Dry Guy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:18 am

skypirate88 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm
goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.
So why wouldn't you go widebody? Isn't it the easiest job?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by skypirate88 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:38 am

Dry Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:18 am
skypirate88 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:20 pm
goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.
So why wouldn't you go widebody? Isn't it the easiest job?
Perhaps as an RP, where your seniority has a chance to improve. Personally, sitting at the bottom of the FO list on reserve isn't appealing to me. At least as a junior RP, you have a good idea what flights they could call you for. As an FO, you could get called in to operate anything from a rapid air to a long haul flight.

I think ultimately it will depend on the pilot. For me, at this stage in my life it isn't an appealing position. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be ideal for someone else.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:13 am

goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
ALL FO or RP positions Year 1-2-3-4
$60.06
$65.67
$74.84
$83.80

75 guaranteed at Mainline
Plus 50% premium on extra flying over monthly DBM, Plus 50% premium on any hours over 85.

77.5 guaranteed at Rogue
Plus 50% premium on extra flying or,
Plus 150% premium if extra flying is draft.

If you bid to a Captain seat in your first 4 years you go to that formula rate.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:28 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:13 am
goleafsgo wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm
How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?
ALL FO or RP positions Year 1-2-3-4
$60.06
$65.67
$74.84
$83.80

75 guaranteed at Mainline
Plus 50% premium on extra flying over monthly DBM, Plus 50% premium on any hours over 85.

77.5 guaranteed at Rogue
Plus 50% premium on extra flying or,
Plus 150% premium if extra flying is draft.

If you bid to a Captain seat in your first 4 years you go to that formula rate.
It's sad when I made more flying Navajos and 1900s for the first 4 years of my career. Essentially you are earning on paper under 75k for the first 4 years at AC (plus the extra hours) flying for a major international carrier.

Please, everyone who has the power to vote, raise your rates on the next contract so you can give the industry some room to breathe. This benefits everybody and we appreciate it very much. Your current contracts unfortunately set a very poor precedent regarding salary ceilings in Canada for all sectors, particularly when you compare those salaries with other countries with lower costs of living.

Thanks,

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:06 am

Air Canada is genius with the whole Express hiring deal. Bring in kids to Express with 1000hrs when they're too naive to know better. Get them used to crap FO pay. After two years, they move over to AC, and take the awesome pay raise from 40 grand to 56 grand! Who wouldn't want that!

Just enough will stay behind to fill the captain seats.

The big wigs are playing the working class like a fiddle. Goes for more than just aviation.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 am

schnitzel:

What's sad is that this is a recurring theme from you, and you don't seem to get it... we've had this discussion before... it takes the whole industry to make gains. 1 group can't do it alone.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:13 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 am
schnitzel:

What's sad is that this is a recurring theme from you, and you don't seem to get it... we've had this discussion before... it takes the whole industry to make gains. 1 group can't do it alone.
Yes we have, and it's because you and many people like you don't get it. It takes the leading pilot group in Canada, in my opinion that would be the ACPA, to forge the way. You guys are the example to follow, stop pretending you aren't 'the force' holding airline wages back in Canada. You guys ABSOLUTELY are.

Unfortunately the way things are means that any airline I chose to start at in Canada, I have to deal with the same abysmal starting salaries you guys have agreed to because everyone is competing with Air Canada, and to do that they have to peg their salaries (costs) at or below ACs.

I have to keep touching on it, because I see the same ignorant posts from guys off flat pay that think 'well I went through it, the next guy can too, it's not that bad, hey just bid captain, yatayatayata, think about the end game....'.

I'll make you a deal altiplano, if you can make significant headway in the starting salaries on your next agreement and help raise the industry bar in Canada close or to the level that we are seeing in the U.S., I promise you will never hear from me on this topic ever again.

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:17 am

Ignorant? Hardly. You are ignorant to the history and the way the labour landscape in this country had unfolded.

I never said that I went through flat pay and years of stagnation so others should.

We had TS and WS rates along with CARs work rules, and some other gems forced on us by an arbitrator so AC could be competitive in 2012, BECAUSE WE SAID NO.

We've spent the last 2 TAs trying to repair some of that, getting years of service back on upgrades at Rouge, getting a pension back for our new hires, trying to fix the CARs work rules at the LCC, etc... and those were big... some guys saw $20-30K gains on YOS alone, plus lifelong guaranteed 6 figure pensions? that's a big item. And we lost those things because other Canadian comparators airlines don't have them.

First 4 years, (all levels) yeah it's not where we should be... I want to see it gone, and I explained where and how it came to be... but still overall as far as career earning potential and benefits, AC is out in front in this country. It's not even close.

What pension do the other airlines in Canada have?
None.
Are their work rules better then ours?
No.
Are their rates higher than ours?
No.

How many came here from other airlines just last month? Let alone over the past year... Westjet, Sunwing, Transat, Cathay, Qatar, and other top paying expat airlines... every course is like that... Seems guys are seeing where the potential is today in this country... where the leading contract is.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see gains here, I think our group has made crucial mistakes and our leadership has been weak, if not complicit in underselling us, AC Pilots have their problems, but it's not the only problem in this country.

Look at how US Pilots make gains, 1 after another, pattern bargaining.
AA gets to #1, UA is next and they beat that, then comes DLT not to be outdone and they get a raise our of contract to make sure they're #1 now... meanwhile JBL, AKA, ALG, SPT etc are bleeding pilots to the Majors so they get right up there too, SWA also keeps pumping along at the same rates as the top drivers in the country... SWA, isn't that what WS is modelled on? Why can't they march those rates and work conditions?

They all push each other up. It's everyone's responsibility to make gains and lift the profession. That's what has to happen here.

AC led North American carriers in pay levels in 2003... ABYSMALLY we haven't been able to make significant gains since, and went backwards a couple times... and still we lead all Canadian airlines today... what were Westjet and C3 and Transat guys doing those years... none of them were catching up... how many consecutive quarters of profitability at Westjet? and they can't get ahead of us? do you remember C3 340 pay? it was lower than AC RJs... Transat widebodies are paid lower than our narrowbodies... and meanwhile we continue to stagnate with downward pressure because of these low cost bottom feeders springing up... Jetsgo, Flair, Swoop...

That's what holds us back.

That's what keeps wages low... how can you make gains when no other national comparators are even close...

Can't make gains when guys have a chip on their shoulders about one company or another, or are too busy being a company guy, keeping it going at all costs... too weak to say no, whether that means shutting it down and setting the brake at contract duty time or 14 hours, or using your sick days when you have to, or not answering your phone on a day off.. that's a big one...

How many guys are working as much OT as they can? 16+ or 20+, days to brag about their T4? That's the problem, and it's a big one. More work isn't a raise and it hurts your position, and your profession.

Used to be we bragged how little we worked to bring in $250K or whatever. We need to get back to that.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:34 am

It ain't gonna change any time soon folks. Air Canada still has a huge stack of applicants with experience dying to get on, and they have their puppy mill (Jazz) giving them a for now endless supply of 2000 hour first officers.

Sure they could up the pay to be nice but why would they? If they cut pay by 20% tomorrow they would still be flush with applicants. Supply and demand.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Victory » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:34 am

It's lip service. They say they want to see it gone but there are other things they would rather have. As soon as you are out of 4 year pay it's not an issue and shouldn't others pay their dues like you did?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:24 pm

Questions for those who work at AC:

What’s the current upgrade time frame?
What is the base salary for a Captain?
How long can you expect to be on reserve?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:29 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:17 am
Ignorant? Hardly. You are ignorant to the history and the way the labour landscape in this country had unfolded.

I never said that I went through flat pay and years of stagnation so others should.

We had TS and WS rates along with CARs work rules, and some other gems forced on us by an arbitrator so AC could be competitive in 2012, BECAUSE WE SAID NO.

We've spent the last 2 TAs trying to repair some of that, getting years of service back on upgrades at Rouge, getting a pension back for our new hires, trying to fix the CARs work rules at the LCC, etc... and those were big... some guys saw $20-30K gains on YOS alone, plus lifelong guaranteed 6 figure pensions? that's a big item. And we lost those things because other Canadian comparators airlines don't have them.

First 4 years, (all levels) yeah it's not where we should be... I want to see it gone, and I explained where and how it came to be... but still overall as far as career earning potential and benefits, AC is out in front in this country. It's not even close.

What pension do the other airlines in Canada have?
None.
Are their work rules better then ours?
No.
Are their rates higher than ours?
No.

How many came here from other airlines just last month? Let alone over the past year... Westjet, Sunwing, Transat, Cathay, Qatar, and other top paying expat airlines... every course is like that... Seems guys are seeing where the potential is today in this country... where the leading contract is.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see gains here, I think our group has made crucial mistakes and our leadership has been weak, if not complicit in underselling us, AC Pilots have their problems, but it's not the only problem in this country.

Look at how US Pilots make gains, 1 after another, pattern bargaining.
AA gets to #1, UA is next and they beat that, then comes DLT not to be outdone and they get a raise our of contract to make sure they're #1 now... meanwhile JBL, AKA, ALG, SPT etc are bleeding pilots to the Majors so they get right up there too, SWA also keeps pumping along at the same rates as the top drivers in the country... SWA, isn't that what WS is modelled on? Why can't they march those rates and work conditions?

They all push each other up. It's everyone's responsibility to make gains and lift the profession. That's what has to happen here.

AC led North American carriers in pay levels in 2003... ABYSMALLY we haven't been able to make significant gains since, and went backwards a couple times... and still we lead all Canadian airlines today... what were Westjet and C3 and Transat guys doing those years... none of them were catching up... how many consecutive quarters of profitability at Westjet? and they can't get ahead of us? do you remember C3 340 pay? it was lower than AC RJs... Transat widebodies are paid lower than our narrowbodies... and meanwhile we continue to stagnate with downward pressure because of these low cost bottom feeders springing up... Jetsgo, Flair, Swoop...

That's what holds us back.

That's what keeps wages low... how can you make gains when no other national comparators are even close...

Can't make gains when guys have a chip on their shoulders about one company or another, or are too busy being a company guy, keeping it going at all costs... too weak to say no, whether that means shutting it down and setting the brake at contract duty time or 14 hours, or using your sick days when you have to, or not answering your phone on a day off.. that's a big one...

How many guys are working as much OT as they can? 16+ or 20+, days to brag about their T4? That's the problem, and it's a big one. More work isn't a raise and it hurts your position, and your profession.

Used to be we bragged how little we worked to bring in $250K or whatever. We need to get back to that.
And I want to see you guys back at that level.

Good luck altiplano going forward, you guys are going to need it.

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloak » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:06 am

altiplano, thanks for the explanation of the recent events, although it is no justification for four years of flat (probationary) pay. Air Canada corporate has been two steps ahead of ACPA all the way. And I agree that Air Canada wages set the standard that other airlines follow. It is not the other way around. So instead of going to WestJet AGM, open an "information booth" at Air Canada AGM to educate the shareholders and bear pressure on Air Canada corporate. Maybe then Air Canada wages will rise to its competitors levels in the U.S and the rest of Canada will follow.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am

FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am
FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:02 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am
FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
Unless they changed how equipment was awarded, last day of PIT class had the names in the hat and then you got to "choose" equipment/position based on that order. I don't think they are exclusively hiring for the 737 at this point. I think they are seeing no-shows and nobody wants to admit it.
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