Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

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Oxi
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Oxi » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:39 pm

judging by the last PIT course pilots they are no "no shows", I would say 99% that the April PIT 31 and May PITs of I think 26 and 25 are due to the 737 Max. August will be a big big system wide
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altiplano
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:56 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:02 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am
FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
Unless they changed how equipment was awarded, last day of PIT class had the names in the hat and then you got to "choose" equipment/position based on that order. I don't think they are exclusively hiring for the 737 at this point. I think they are seeing no-shows and nobody wants to admit it.
It's possible guys are no-showing,

But what I meant is the training department on all types can only handle so many course starts in the 3 or 4 weeks after the PIT course finishes.

Since there are no 737 courses to run that number is reduced... Why bring guys on if your sims and instructors are already at capacity so they just reduce the overall new hire intake by 6 or 8 or whatever the 737 was going to accommodate, otherwise maybe guys would be waiting around 5 or 6 weeks or more to start 320 or RP training or whatever...

I'm just guessing... but it seems likely... we're still hundreds short...
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cloudskimmer
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloudskimmer » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:50 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am
FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
I believe he said in one of his newsletters a few months back that the plan was to hire 30-40 every three weeks until June and then classes of 40 every 2 weeks. So I don’t think there are may no-shows, if any, based on the last few courses. That forecast was also before the 737 MAX grounding so not sure if the plans are changing.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Stu Pidasso » Sat May 04, 2019 8:53 am

The piece you don't understand Schnitzel, is the low starting pay has nothing to do with Air Canada (The Corporation) and everything to do with ACPA. The company could care less if the 4000 Pilots were all paid exactly the same, all that matters to them is the cost of the entire Pilot payroll.

It is up to the Union to decide how they want it distributed.


At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K and the top FO 350K, after some guy was beaking off about the lousy pay. He was told to go apply to the M-Rats. Now If it was up to me, no Pilot would ever earn less than the person delivering you your coffee, or the one loading the baggage. In todays dollars I would say starting pay should be at 100K, giving consideration to the level of investment in the career. The reason why it is so poor for the first four years is a long complicated discussion about Union bargaining.

The difference between a Corporate Pilot career and an AC one are not even in the same league, but we all make our own choices.
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cloak
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloak » Sat May 04, 2019 10:06 am

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:53 am
The piece you don't understand Schnitzel, is the low starting pay has nothing to do with Air Canada (The Corporation) and everything to do with ACPA. The company could care less if the 4000 Pilots were all paid exactly the same, all that matters to them is the cost of the entire Pilot payroll.

It is up to the Union to decide how they want it distributed.


At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K and the top FO 350K, after some guy was beaking off about the lousy pay. He was told to go apply to the M-Rats. Now If it was up to me, no Pilot would ever earn less than the person delivering you your coffee, or the one loading the baggage. In todays dollars I would say starting pay should be at 100K, giving consideration to the level of investment in the career. The reason why it is so poor for the first four years is a long complicated discussion about Union bargaining.

The difference between a Corporate Pilot career and an AC one are not even in the same league, but we all make our own choices.
Very well put, the starting pay should be around 100K. There should be greater "value" for the years of experience a pilot brings to Air Canada upon joining. At the moment its only "value" is to get a pilot an interview! Even worse, there is no distinction between different levels of experience. This is due to the way pilot unions are set-up that don't treat piloting jobs as "professional" jobs. Although during negotiations unions compare pilots with other professionals like nurses, doctors and lawyers, they behave like factory workers and often new recruits, who don't have a voice, are sacrificed.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Daniel Cooper » Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am

I wonder if part of the problem is the people making these decisions were hired at 18 and sat sideways on the DC-8 for years. Now people being hired are often 30+, are 737 Captains, and are going right seat wide-body. It's not exactly the way it used to be.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Stu Pidasso » Sat May 04, 2019 11:08 am

Considering we are close to D.E.C. positions, I bet that Management wishes they were paying 100K to start. They could attract (home) some of highly experienced ex-Pats flying for Cathay and Emirates. The existing Pilot Shortage and more importantly experience shortage is keeping our Flt Ops Management awake at night.


Maybe "signing bonuses" would be an good end run around ACPA?
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altiplano
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano » Sat May 04, 2019 12:15 pm

You couldn't do signing bonuses outside the collective agreement... it would take agreement from ACPA.

But you're right that's exactly the type of thing that the company would like us to agree to - one time payments... and it sounds good on the surface, but it's a mistake. We would be better and want an increase in pay in the contract - that stays into the future and raises build on that... the one time payment? As quickly as it comes, it's gone and you are still left with the lower salary.

There was a similar issue at Horizon a couple years back - signing bonuses to attract new recruits - the Union threatened to strike and sued the company.

“Short-sighted maneuvers won’t solve the staffing problem, and as our airline continues to ground flights, the real victims will be the passengers, customers, and communities in the Pacific Northwest that rely on Horizon Air for their livelihood,” said Capt. Jeff Cox, a Horizon pilot and executive council chairman of APA Teamsters Local 1224, in a news release. “A one-time payment to new recruits does nothing to address the pilot retention issues at Horizon Air that are already jeopardizing service.”


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... trike.html

Also, you're right that the company says: "there's only so much, you guys split it up how you see fit"... and that's the problem... time for the company to get a bigger pot.

As much as new hires are underpaid, so is every other position at this airline. Our Captains, particularly NB, significantly lag other legacy North American and European airlines, our FOs are a substandard ratio of that already substandard Captain pay, and we have RPs where we should have Captains and FOs on LH/ULH routes.

Too many of us though, just happy to be here, happy to be flying a new jet, happy to go with the flow... that's at every airline in this country AFAIC. esp. the new ULCC operators they had to dredge the ditch to get the pay down too... We might lead the pack in Canada, but it's like being King of the Idiots...
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ogopogo
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by ogopogo » Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am

At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by tbaylx » Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 am

ogopogo wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am
At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
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Hangry
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Hangry » Sun May 05, 2019 7:39 am

No one is raising pay to attract you. They don’t need to.
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TheStig
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by TheStig » Sun May 05, 2019 9:17 am

Air Canada doesn't need to attract the 'most' qualified pilots to be honest, airlines have no interest in raising pay to poach each others Captains. AC isn't recruiting DEC's. Pilots hired in late 2016/early 2017 may go down as the most fortunate group in Canadian aviation history, but even they will have almost 3 years, usually on-type, before upgrading on the EMJ or A320. Quick upgrades themselves are an excellent to for attracting qualified applicants.

With the new PML established at Jazz I would think that attracting qualified applicants isn't even on a top 10 list of Flight Operations biggest concerns.

Keeping Exec's Up AT Night:
1-The
2-737
3-Max
4--8
5 -An Accident
6-New Duty Regs
7-Economic Recession
8- Simulators Availability
9-A220 Introduction
10- 767 fleet replacement
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yycflyguy
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by yycflyguy » Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 am

Meh. No AC executive is losing any sleep over anything. It is a present day cash cow with positive stock returns, whipped unions, long term contracts and executive bonuses partially funded by concessions made. It's good to be the King (or a Kingdom Minion)
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Johnny767
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Johnny767 » Sun May 05, 2019 12:10 pm

Pilots hired in late 2016/early 2017 may go down as the most fortunate group in Canadian aviation history,


And they're still unhappy, with their "Children of the FOS" special interest group and coup attempts at every level of ACPA.
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ikarus
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by ikarus » Sun May 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:53 am
The piece you don't understand Schnitzel, is the low starting pay has nothing to do with Air Canada (The Corporation) and everything to do with ACPA. The company could care less if the 4000 Pilots were all paid exactly the same, all that matters to them is the cost of the entire Pilot payroll.

It is up to the Union to decide how they want it distributed.

Well said.
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Hangry
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Hangry » Sun May 05, 2019 12:32 pm

Johnny767 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:10 pm
Pilots hired in late 2016/early 2017 may go down as the most fortunate group in Canadian aviation history,


And they're still unhappy, with their "Children of the FOS" special interest group and coup attempts at every level of ACPA.
So their concerns are not valid then? They should just be happy?
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Johnny767
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Johnny767 » Sun May 05, 2019 12:45 pm

And what exactly are your big concerns Hangry? The generation that will have the best career in the four decades I have been in this business.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:28 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 am
ogopogo wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am
At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
Says the guy who accepted the shitty 4 year flat pay to get into AC last month...
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Warden
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Warden » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:13 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:28 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 am
ogopogo wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am
At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
Says the guy who accepted the shitty 4 year flat pay to get into AC last month...
BRB going to read the new hire bios and look for someone who did a few months at Swoop, then Flair. Can't be more than one.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:36 am

Warden wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:13 am
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:28 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 am


That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
Says the guy who accepted the shitty 4 year flat pay to get into AC last month...
BRB going to read the new hire bios and look for someone who did a few months at Swoop, then Flair. Can't be more than one.
Bingo was his name-o. Won’t take you long.
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Warden
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Warden » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:38 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:36 am
Warden wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:13 am
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:28 pm


Says the guy who accepted the shitty 4 year flat pay to get into AC last month...
BRB going to read the new hire bios and look for someone who did a few months at Swoop, then Flair. Can't be more than one.
Bingo was his name-o. Won’t take you long.
Found him.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Jean-Pierre » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:10 am

Kudos for doing what ever it take to get to AC. You made it. :rolleyes:
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:36 am

Nice work Avcanada posse..you'll get him real good!

:roll:

Anywho....
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tbaylx
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:46 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:28 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 am
ogopogo wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am
At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
Says the guy who accepted the shitty 4 year flat pay to get into AC last month...
Barking up the wrong tree there Sherlock. It’s says the guy who turned down a Jan course for that exact reason. The guy you’re referring to, AC is lucky to have despite the 4 year starting pay.
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shimmydampner
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Re: CEO pay vs 4 year flat pay.

Post by shimmydampner » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:01 pm

tailgunner wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:41 am
Quit flying. Get a law degree. Work your way up the corporate ladder on Bay Street.
Never bitch about the amount that successful people make. It is there for you as well, you just have to do it.
Oh yeah? How many lifetimes would it take YOU to get to that position? And let's be clear that this type of "success" is very different from the type of success that it would take to start even a small air service and make a go of it. Personally, I don't view it to be much of an accomplishment when a bunch of millionaire buddies sit around a board room jerking each other off and handing out multi-million dollar bonuses for coming up with new ways to squeeze more profit out of the same system, usually at the expense of the common man's retirement.
Also, when is the last time you or any other Air Canada pilot got a 28% raise and a 250% bonus? I don't understand the instinct to defend such obvious and systemic, psychopath-level greed.
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