Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

[Raymond Hall]

From today's New York Times:

The executive in charge of Boeing’s troubled 787 Dreamliner factory in North Charleston, S.C., is leaving the company, according to an internal company memo reviewed by The New York Times on Wednesday.

The departure of the executive, David Carbon, the vice president for 787 operations at Boeing South Carolina since 2016, comes about a month after The Times published an article detailing shoddy production practices and weak oversight at the factory. …

The Times’s article detailed a decade of problems at the South Carolina plant that continue to plague the factory. Debris was often left on finished jets, planes were badly damaged during the manufacturing process, and employees who tried to register complaints were frequently sidelined.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/busi ... e=Homepage

[L39Guy]

Is this a real issue or is this an issue created by the newspapers to create headlines and sales?

Airlines have inspectors on site to inspect their multi-million dollar purchases as they are assembled. The aircraft are test flown by production test pilots prior to delivery and the airlines perform acceptance test flights to verify all of the systems. The aircraft are under warranty for x years following delivery. Have any aircraft crashed as a result of these so called production issues?

How much of this is a case of kicking Boeing while they are down? How much of this a union issue as the South Carolina facility is non-union? I am skeptical that this is a big issue, no bigger at Boeing than it would be at Airbus, GM, BMW, etc.

[Raymond Hall]

Is this a real issue or is this an issue created by the newspapers to create headlines and sales?

I believe that the key element of this story is the appearance of turmoil within the management, especially the senior management, of Boeing. That is usually indicative of a larger problem.

[yycflyguy]

Is this a real issue or is this an issue created by the newspapers to create headlines and sales?

I believe that the key element of this story is the appearance of turmoil within the management, especially the senior management, of Boeing. That is usually indicative of a larger problem.

Agreed. Especially this part "No full-time successor to Mr. Carbon, who plans to return to his native Australia, was announced. The Boeing memo, written by Brad Zaback, the head of the company’s 787 program, said Mr. Carbon was leaving “to care for his family.”

Sacking a VP Operations for the B787 is a significant admission of a greater issue.

[Eric Janson]

More information emerges on the -MAX certification

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/busi ... crash.html

I'm not a Lawyer but this looks like Criminal Negligence to me.

Doesn't look like this aircraft will be returning to service anytime soon - if at all.

[Raymond Hall]

More information emerges on the -MAX certification Doesn't look like this aircraft will be returning to service anytime soon - if at all.

'
A superbly researched article providing the most extensive detail yet re the process leading to the events. Big company. Big mistakes. Especially wilfull blindness and prioritization of profit over safety.

However, the design and implementation flaws are able to be remedied. There is just too much at stake for this aircraft to not be put back into service. 4,600 copes at around $150 million per copy. the equivalent of the annual GDP of many countries. Big bucks, and tremendous sunk cost for not just Boeing but for many of the airlines already in possession of the deliveries.

My expectation is that it will take longer and cost more than anticipated, but that we will start to see a lifting of restrictions early this autumn, combined with significant changes to the FAA oversight regimen.

[yycflyguy]

My expectation is that it will take longer and cost more than anticipated, but that we will start to see a lifting of restrictions early this autumn, combined with significant changes to the FAA oversight regimen.

Agreed on all fronts.

[Raymond Hall]

From CNN today:

Sullenberger:

I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems.

"We must make sure that everyone who occupies a pilot seat is fully armed with the information, knowledge, training, skill and judgment to be able to be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its component systems and of the situations simultaneously and continuously throughout the flight," he said.

Pilots need physical, firsthand experience to be prepared for emergencies, Sullenberger said.

"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/19/politics ... index.html

[Raymond Hall]

A short interview, today..

https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Polit ... =131894046

['97 Tercel]

Boeing may come out of this less scathed than we all think...

PARIS, FRANCE — The parent company of British Airways said on Tuesday that it is buying a new fleet of Boeing 737 Max jets — the first big-ticket order for the plane since it was grounded around the world after two fatal crashes.

International Airlines Group (IAG) announced at the Paris Air Show that it would buy 200 of the jets in a deal worth about $24 billion.

Willie Walsh, the CEO of IAG, said the company was "pleased" with the decision and that the Max would "be a great addition to IAG's short-haul fleet."


IAG is the parent company of British Airways, Aer Lingus, Iberia, and Vueling.

The company said it would buy a combination of the 737 Max 8 and the larger 737 Max 10.

https://www.businessinsider.com/iag-to- ... sis-2019-6

[telex]

Boeing may come out of this less scathed than we all think...

PARIS, FRANCE — The parent company of British Airways said on Tuesday that it is buying a new fleet of Boeing 737 Max jets — the first big-ticket order for the plane since it was grounded around the world after two fatal crashes.

International Airlines Group (IAG) announced at the Paris Air Show that it would buy 200 of the jets in a deal worth about $24 billion.

Willie Walsh, the CEO of IAG, said the company was "pleased" with the decision and that the Max would "be a great addition to IAG's short-haul fleet."


IAG is the parent company of British Airways, Aer Lingus, Iberia, and Vueling.

The company said it would buy a combination of the 737 Max 8 and the larger 737 Max 10.

https://www.businessinsider.com/iag-to- ... sis-2019-6

How do you anticipate an order for 200 airframes will affect anything related to this situation?

[FL410AV8R]

Boeing may come out of this less scathed than we all think...

PARIS, FRANCE — The parent company of British Airways said on Tuesday that it is buying a new fleet of Boeing 737 Max jets — the first big-ticket order for the plane since it was grounded around the world after two fatal crashes.

International Airlines Group (IAG) announced at the Paris Air Show that it would buy 200 of the jets in a deal worth about $24 billion.

Willie Walsh, the CEO of IAG, said the company was "pleased" with the decision and that the Max would "be a great addition to IAG's short-haul fleet."


IAG is the parent company of British Airways, Aer Lingus, Iberia, and Vueling.

The company said it would buy a combination of the 737 Max 8 and the larger 737 Max 10.

https://www.businessinsider.com/iag-to- ... sis-2019-6

How do you anticipate an order for 200 airframes will affect anything related to this situation?

I am pretty certain that Willie Walsh negotiated this order at a significant discount.

[goingnowherefast]

Probably gave the planes away. I wonder if they sold them below cost, a la CSeries dumping scandal that Boeing fought....

[Babar350]

New flaw discovered on Boeing 737 Max, sources say :

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics ... index.html

What are the odds to see the 737Max fly again?

[goingnowherefast]

They'll spend billions to get it flying again. Probably already have. Boeing reputation is riding on this jet. Even if they never make a penny on the 737 program again, they'll fix it to save face. Even if they have to jack up the landing gear and lower the engines, but I bet they'd do it.

I certainly wouldn't buy a 797 I were worried I'd be buying a plane that might turn into a giant paperweight forever.

[telex]

They'll spend billions to get it flying again. Probably already have. Boeing reputation is riding on this jet. Even if they never make a penny on the 737 program again, they'll fix it to save face. Even if they have to jack up the landing gear and lower the engines, but I bet they'd do it.

I certainly wouldn't buy a 797 I were worried I'd be buying a plane that might turn into a giant paperweight forever.

I'd buy a 797. A clean sheet design vs a fifty year old airframe covered in patchwork fixes should be ok.

However, the A321XLR might have already killed the 797 concept.

[Raymond Hall]

To date, 4,937 orders at an average price of U.S. $121.6 million per order: U.S. $662,545 million (big bucks).

That's what I would call an "incentive" to get this program back on the rails. Further, it demonstrates just how insignificant the potential damages could be as a result of any and all litigation, both by individuals and by the airlines that lost use of the aircraft for a sustained period of time.

The technical problems are not insurmountable. The public perception problems are equally not insurmountable.

My guess is that it will be back in the air in October. And the public will be provided sufficient assurance to overcome any skepticism resulting from its history.

[speedah]

Over half a trillion according to your calculation!

[Raymond Hall]

From today's Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... dec7e3f523

Boeing had a history of failing to fix safety problems

Safety problems known to FAA for years, including…
Boeing subcontractor falsifying certifications;
legal enforcement cases for failing to comply with safety regulations;
often late or incomplete with required safety submission;
inability to rid aircraft of foreign object debris (such as tools left behind);
apparent failures of corrective action;
administrative problems related to sub-delegation of FAA oversight authority to a Boeing management unit (the Organization Designation Authorization program (ODA)), with Boeing’s designated inspectors lobbying the federal government on behalf of Boeing;
complaints of undue pressure on internal (FAA ODA) inspectors by Boeing managers; and
issues raised about Boeing’s oversight of its network of parts suppliers and their respective inspectors...

Boeing’s own employees in Renton and Everett, Wash., and elsewhere also recorded false information for certain planes, including on a 787 that was sold to Air Canada and later experienced a fuel leak, the FAA found. A Boeing mechanic and inspector involved in that case faced unspecified “corrective action,” the company said. …

In a recent study, Barnett found that about 1 in 8 million passengers worldwide died on a scheduled commercial flight in the decade ending in 2017. But for passengers who flew on the Max, Barnett estimated the risk was “at least 20 times that,” or roughly 1 in every 300,000 passengers.

[Old fella]

To date, 4,937 orders at an average price of U.S. $121.6 million per order: U.S. $662,545 million (big bucks).

That's what I would call an "incentive" to get this program back on the rails. Further, it demonstrates just how insignificant the potential damages could be as a result of any and all litigation, both by individuals and by the airlines that lost use of the aircraft for a sustained period of time.

The technical problems are not insurmountable. The public perception problems are equally not insurmountable.

My guess is that it will be back in the air in October. And the public will be provided sufficient assurance to overcome any skepticism resulting from its history.

Not that I know much about this issue but I am willing to wager your assessment is certainly accurate. As for flying public(which I am part of) perception , most that I know couldn’t tell the difference between an EMB90/A320-21/B737 Max if you lined them up side by side. People are going to continue utilizing the services of the various airlines when the Max issues get ironed out and returned to operations.