AC offer AT $13 per share

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
User avatar
infiniteregulus
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by infiniteregulus » Thu May 16, 2019 5:38 pm

It wasn't AT pilot's choice but it also wasn't AC pilot's choice either. If the AT guys get DOH, that makes YOU BOTL haha. Someone will be BOTL :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2089
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by digits_ » Thu May 16, 2019 7:04 pm

Not sure what the problem would be with DOH. They are bringing their own planes with them are they not? How would DOH affect any AC pilot badly? I honestly don't see the problem...
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by altiplano » Thu May 16, 2019 8:54 pm

digits_ wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:04 pm
Not sure what the problem would be with DOH. They are bringing their own planes with them are they not? How would DOH affect any AC pilot badly? I honestly don't see the problem...
Many of the planes will never turn a wheel after the merger. 310s, 737s, possibly the 330-200s... gone.

Senior Transat guys, I see guys on that list hired 88, 89, 90... they should still hold 330CA and they will get a huge raise. But junior 330CAs, I understand some with less than 10 years seniority... no way they should get slotted into the seniority bracket to hold the 330 near the top of a merged list and stay on "their plane" it's not "their plane" - it's Calin Rovinescu's now... but even with seniority to hold 320CAs at AC for example, they will make a higher rate than they did at AT, so still a pay raise, but not the lottery.

I understand 320/330 dual typed at Transat anyway... we don't do that at AC.

This isn't anyone's fault, and everyone except the most senior from both companies will take something of a hit... I'm not happy about it, but no one asked me, and I won't hold it against my future coworkers from AT, but everyone has to be reasonable.

Some AT guys may be disappointed to lose some relative placement on the new list, but they are still the big winners here IMO, all will see a pay raise, more certainty/stability, and more flying options/opportunity... option to be admitted to a lifetime payout pension too.

Then we need to get united and go after the F__ks that did this merger and get all of our pay rates going in the right direction (US Legacy rates) because the AC contract will get opened up after this merger goes through. We need to be working together to lift all our futures.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by altiplano on Thu May 16, 2019 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stinky
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:51 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Stinky » Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 pm

Good way to get rid of the competition, hire hundreds of type rated pilots in one shot and replace the Max's with Neo's.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL320
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by FL320 » Fri May 17, 2019 6:20 am

John1234 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:46 pm
It would be minimal for everybody hired at AC pre 2016. Everybody after will have 500 people slide ahead. Many who had to bite the bullet and go make penny’s at express to get to ac. So they should just slide in? The people who quit express to go to transat come out ahead, the ones who left transat for Ac get the bottom of the barrel. Of course senior guys don’t care, typical fashion of aviation the ones at the bottom just get to keep digging a deeper hole. Transat has been hiring 1000hr instructors, congratulations on winning the lotto
For the last 6 years I have trained many new pilots at Air Transat and I have never seen someone hired with only 1000 hours as instructor. People are coming with turboprop or jet time from Jazz, Westjet Encore, Porter, Air Inuit and Sky Regional . They all went through an interview process with HR and CP, psy exam on computer and a sim evaluation. Almost the same hiring process when I joined Jazz some years ago ''when I had to bite the bullet and go make penny’s at express to get to ac'' (who never called me for an interview).
Like at AC or any other airline we have some assholes, however the majority are very nice people; professional and dedicated. If the deal is approved, keep in mind that we didn't want to steal your job at AC; most of us really love our job at AT and wouldn't trade it for a job at AC. I agree AC will bring better benefits and a better hourly rate. However I am not quite sure we would be able anymore to hold a Captain position on the A330 after 5 years in, nor fly the B737 8 days per month and get 23 days OFF to make some overtime if desired.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by DanWEC » Fri May 17, 2019 7:03 am

That is an honest, fair, and factual post based in actual reality.

What's it doing on this forum? :)
---------- ADS -----------
  

land3
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: No longer in the crew bunk at 180E

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by land3 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:17 am

Mrbobmarly111 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:55 pm
It will be BOTL. When Canadian merged with AC years ago they went BOTL. It sucks but ACPA has a obligation to its pilots. Research previous AC mergers of you dont believe me.
The merge with Canadian was BOTL? Is that what everyone thinks happened?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Ah_yeah
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Ah_yeah » Fri May 17, 2019 10:19 am

That is so NOT what happened. Nice try whoever posted that. :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
pianokeys
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by pianokeys » Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 am

YEAH OKAY. No, AC got the shaft. Canadian guys got the consolation prize, the "sorry we bought out your mismanaged airline" prize of an extra few years.

Back in my ramp days I worked with a guy who claimed he had 40 years of seniority. That meant he started when he was 14.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Habslover
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:46 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Habslover » Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

Excuse me, I am a little confused....why on god green eart would AT pilot go to AC and go BOTL???

I punch my time flying uh wide body tree turdy last 12 yr. You think Sr. Capitan is going to go backward and fly little bus?? I don’t think so my friends, Air Transat will merge and fair the better of the two company, AC pilot have sucked at the tit for far to long, time to share some of dis, no?

Our Union have been working hard for us, in case of this event. We have the greater toolbox. We will have the great seniority.

The sky is definitely blue today and I feel a strong wind from behind.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1927
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by mbav8r » Fri May 17, 2019 11:59 am

Habslover wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Excuse me, I am a little confused....why on god green eart would AT pilot go to AC and go BOTL???

I punch my time flying uh wide body tree turdy last 12 yr. You think Sr. Capitan is going to go backward and fly little bus?? I don’t think so my friends, Air Transat will merge and fair the better of the two company, AC pilot have sucked at the tit for far to long, time to share some of dis, no?

Our Union have been working hard for us, in case of this event. We have the greater toolbox. We will have the great seniority.

The sky is definitely blue today and I feel a strong wind from behind.
Pretty funny and also delusional, you will not be ALPA when the dust settles, first order of business for a merger of two unions is a vote for which union to represent you, who has the majority will win! How many AT pilots, how many AC pilots again?
The ACPA pilots were contemplating joining ALPA, ALPA merger policy between two ALPA carriers is DOH, ACPA seniority policy is one sentence(I’m given to understand), it states, merger will be BOTL. which way do you think the vote will go based on that.
That’s the reality, I wish it could be different but I seriously doubt anyone will support wide body Captains way out of seniority, and knowing how important seniority is to AC pilots(history), I have no reason to think this will be any different, looking forward to the “original Air Canada” pilot stickers coming out again.
---------- ADS -----------
  

islandguy
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:10 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by islandguy » Fri May 17, 2019 12:01 pm

Habslover wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Excuse me, I am a little confused....why on god green eart would AT pilot go to AC and go BOTL???

I punch my time flying uh wide body tree turdy last 12 yr. You think Sr. Capitan is going to go backward and fly little bus?? I don’t think so my friends, Air Transat will merge and fair the better of the two company, AC pilot have sucked at the tit for far to long, time to share some of dis, no?

Our Union have been working hard for us, in case of this event. We have the greater toolbox. We will have the great seniority.

The sky is definitely blue today and I feel a strong wind from behind.
Should we read this in the form of a poetry slam, or something?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Fri May 17, 2019 12:44 pm

During the Canadian merger there was a lot of strife over the fact that Canadian law didn't recognize DOH as the basis for seniority. There was a push to change the law after the fiasco of the merger. Does anyone know if the law was ever changed to recognize DOH, or if it's still the way it was back then?

What the law says is ultimately what form mergers take in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:59 am
you will not be ALPA when the dust settles
ACPA must be loving the timing of this buy out since it means there is no way AC pilots are going to vote for ALPA now. The conspiracy theorist in me can't help wonder if that was a small part of the reasoning for the company to jump on this deal. I suspect they'd much rather negotiate against ACPA.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TFTMB heavy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:58 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by TFTMB heavy » Fri May 17, 2019 1:19 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:59 am
Habslover wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Excuse me, I am a little confused....why on god green eart would AT pilot go to AC and go BOTL???

I punch my time flying uh wide body tree turdy last 12 yr. You think Sr. Capitan is going to go backward and fly little bus?? I don’t think so my friends, Air Transat will merge and fair the better of the two company, AC pilot have sucked at the tit for far to long, time to share some of dis, no?

Our Union have been working hard for us, in case of this event. We have the greater toolbox. We will have the great seniority.

The sky is definitely blue today and I feel a strong wind from behind.
Pretty funny and also delusional, you will not be ALPA when the dust settles, first order of business for a merger of two unions is a vote for which union to represent you, who has the majority will win! How many AT pilots, how many AC pilots again?
The ACPA pilots were contemplating joining ALPA, ALPA merger policy between two ALPA carriers is DOH, ACPA seniority policy is one sentence(I’m given to understand), it states, merger will be BOTL. which way do you think the vote will go based on that.
That’s the reality, I wish it could be different but I seriously doubt anyone will support wide body Captains way out of seniority, and knowing how important seniority is to AC pilots(history), I have no reason to think this will be any different, looking forward to the “original Air Canada” pilot stickers coming out again.
Do not feed this troll. He/she does not work for Air Transat.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1627
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri May 17, 2019 3:49 pm

As someone with no skin in the game (other than picking airlines to apply to in 2-3 years time) I would put forward this. People are already bickering about botl or doh, but as some has pointed out the entire contract will be negotiated. Why not ditch seniority? Negotiate that. Yeah am I delusional? probably, do I know how to accomplish this? Nope. However, it has been said time and again seniority just shackles us to companies vs say nurses where seniority/ experience is industry wide not employer specific. Just a pipe dream I know, but if you're going back to the table anyway dream big. Lead the industry. Base it off log hours or something.

My 2¢
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
fruitloops
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:13 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by fruitloops » Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 pm

What's everyone's guess on the most likely direction or outcome of this merger if successful regarding the brand of AT.... keep the AT brand/image and just own/operate..... or ditch the Brand merge...replace by just AC..... or create new internal vacation brand like using AC Vacations .... or Rouge Vacations ? My guess is just replace w AC centralize everything... just wondering about other possibilities
---------- ADS -----------
  

thesimplelife
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife » Fri May 17, 2019 4:36 pm

fruitloops wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 pm
What's everyone's guess on the most likely direction or outcome of this merger if successful regarding the brand of AT.... keep the AT brand/image and just own/operate..... or ditch the Brand merge...replace by just AC..... or create new internal vacation brand like using AC Vacations .... or Rouge Vacations ? My guess is just replace w AC centralize everything... just wondering about other possibilities

I can see them dropping the Rouge brand and kee Air Transat. Lots of people I know hate when they buy a ticket on Air Canada and get "Rouged"... Many don't even understand the difference. Air Transat has pretty strong branding.

If it were my choice and it's not, I'd consider making AT the spin off vacation brand/LCC and only have Air Canada mainline as the other. Make it clear online that you are buying a ticket on Air Canada or Transat.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Fri May 17, 2019 5:51 pm

Unfortunately executives are not in touch with reality and probably think people love Rouge.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
fruitloops
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:13 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by fruitloops » Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 pm

If the wording in this message means anything Air Transat could remain its own brand/operation for the foreseeable future at least and no merge short term.

1. By connecting Transat to our own network
2. ....adding Transat services to our network would create new North American market opportunities

....................................
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by fruitloops on Sat May 18, 2019 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

Jettime3
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:07 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Jettime3 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:34 pm

TS is in financial trouble and they already announced they were looking for buyers prior to Onyx buying WJ. It was in the media. TS stock raised the day they announced the company was on the market . But it doesn't mean they can sustain the losses if they did not secure themselves. AC needs their aircraft and likely their mutual routes shared with Rouge and the European ones Rouge is not a leader in. AC did them a favour; TS could have been the next charter to see a demise . I do not view it as a merger . It's a buyout. There are some old timers at TS who came from other now defunct airlines. Those guys have the hours . Won't be pretty if they have to give up their years and high flying hours to some low timer who came from a Regional recently . I'm AC now and I know there will be TS pilots who have been flying since I was a little guy. My respect to them but I still think this is going to go CIRB . I see both sides of the equasion. Word in the flight deck is they should be BOTL . But maybe that will not need to happen if AC keeps TS separate. My wife and me actually prefer TS when we fly , they have a distinct level and it's better than Rouge , comfortable, entertainment, more professional onboard crews and better aircraft . Maybe AC should look at that , make Rouge the LCC and put TS in its own league of distinction.
---------- ADS -----------
  

thesimplelife
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife » Fri May 17, 2019 11:12 pm

fruitloops wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 pm
If the wording in this message means anything Air Transat could remain its own brand/operation for the foreseeable future at least and no merge short term.

1. By connecting Transat to our own network
2. ....adding Transat services to our network would create new North American market opportunities

....................................


If that's the plan and ACPA let's it happen, all the more reason to finally kick them to the curb.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by thesimplelife on Sat May 18, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Victory
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Victory » Sat May 18, 2019 4:44 am

fruitloops wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 pm
i posted this in the DOH merge topic but deserves to be here too

-------

If the wording in Calin's message means anything Air Transat could remain its own brand/operation for the foreseeable future at least and no merge short term.

1. By connecting Transat to our own network
2. ....adding Transat services to our network would create new North American market opportunities to cities like Seattle, San Diego, Charlotte and Nashville, and allow added frequencies to major U.S. and Canadian cites

....................................

By adding incremental revenues of $3 billion and a world-leading international tourism company, this purchase will accelerate our already ambitious growth plan. A transformative new relationship with Transat is consistent with everything we have been saying and doing over the last decade and supports the same four priorities that have brought us so far in becoming sustainably profitable and a true global champion.

The most obvious of those is International Growth. By connecting Transat to our own network, we would be strengthening service to cities like Basel, Malagua, Nantes, Toulouse, Porto and Prague. Additionally, adding Transat services to our network would create new North American market opportunities to cities like Seattle, San Diego, Charlotte and Nashville, and allow added frequencies to major U.S. and Canadian cites.

Our priority around Customer Engagement would also be supported, as customers would greatly benefit from an enhanced global network that offers more travel options, improved flight schedules, new products and services, new route opportunities, and access to value-added benefits such as loyalty programs and frequent flyer benefits, particularly in light of our recent acquisition of Aeroplan. Transat also brings a proven track record in customer service excellence.

This “made in Quebec” solution would strengthen our Montreal hub as a top international connection point. All of that, in turn, supports Revenue Generation – another of our priorities.
By posting internal memos all over the internet you are insuring that you and your co-workers are told nothing in the future.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
termerair
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:05 pm
Location: In my shoes

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by termerair » Sat May 18, 2019 5:48 am

Jettime3 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:34 pm
TS is in financial trouble and they already announced they were looking for buyers prior to Onyx buying WJ. It was in the media. TS stock raised the day they announced the company was on the market . But it doesn't mean they can sustain the losses if they did not secure themselves. AC needs their aircraft and likely their mutual routes shared with Rouge and the European ones Rouge is not a leader in. AC did them a favour; TS could have been the next charter to see a demise . I do not view it as a merger . It's a buyout. There are some old timers at TS who came from other now defunct airlines. Those guys have the hours . Won't be pretty if they have to give up their years and high flying hours to some low timer who came from a Regional recently . I'm AC now and I know there will be TS pilots who have been flying since I was a little guy. My respect to them but I still think this is going to go CIRB . I see both sides of the equasion. Word in the flight deck is they should be BOTL . But maybe that will not need to happen if AC keeps TS separate. My wife and me actually prefer TS when we fly , they have a distinct level and it's better than Rouge , comfortable, entertainment, more professional onboard crews and better aircraft . Maybe AC should look at that , make Rouge the LCC and put TS in its own league of distinction.
I, personally, wouldn't call it financial trouble when you're holding 620 millions in cash at the bank with zero debt... i agree TS was not generating surpluses on a regular basis but you have to understand that TS was in the middle of a strategic plan that was going to improve its profitability within 2 years.

And NO, the Transat group did not look for a buyer. They are/were nowhere near closing their doors. They were approached by different players, one of them being AC. As a public company traded on the stock market they had to disclose that information. For some reasons we will probably not know right away, AC is on its way to win the game and i am quite sure the share price was not the only argument.

In my opinion, it is not a coincidence those 2 major announcements (ONEX buying WJ and AC buying TS) took place a few days apart. I am pretty sure AC felt the danger to see TS go with WJ to develop the international market. AC, with the purchase of TS, is protecting itself on top of grabbing a handful of cash. Smart move from an investor point of view. To say that AC has saved Transat from a foreseeable closure is a bit pretentious imho. On the other hand, i believe TS liked very much the idea of the HQ remaining in YUL (lots of politics in the background i am sure...). I see it as an arranged marriage where both companies have something to gain.

I really really really hope the 2 pilot groups will work together in a smart way if a merger has to happen. Our 2 pilot groups deserve better than fighting over their ego. For most TS pilots, the blue star is their career first choice, not the left over option from an AC PFO letter in their young age. Some have even turned down AC a couple of times when at Air Transat. Both parties have gains to be made if we all remain somehow reasonable and respectful of each other.

But first, let's wait for that transaction to go through all the many steps it has to pass...!

And maybe then we will see each other in the briefing room in a few years! Cheers!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Sat May 18, 2019 6:53 am

They bought $620 million in cash for $520 million plus an airline for free? Something doesn't add up there.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”