AC offer AT $13 per share

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danield
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by danield » Mon May 20, 2019 6:39 am

FL320 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:25 am
Hmm, so you should be rewarded for lowering the industry standard for years at Transat? And benefit for others hard work and progress? You my friend are what is wrong with the industry. Enjoy your new seniority number and your new job.
Danield, there is no need to be condescending when you are one of (if not) the lowest paid major airline pilot in the world. Most of us -pilots- at any airline had to work VERY hard for our progress; don’t be disrespectful because you had the opportunity to get a job at AC; especially if by hard work and progress you mean having spent just a few years at Jazz or any other ultra low cost feeder ...there is nothing to be proud of.
Many pilots had to choose another path because they couldn’t afford anymore the huge income loss by starting at the bottom of the AC list; we’re not all 25 years old living in a basement.
Your selfish attitude is what is wrong, not only in this industry but in the 2019 world.
Did you not even read the post I responded to?
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AirMail
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by AirMail » Mon May 20, 2019 9:29 am

Victory wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:46 am
God I hope this deal doesn't go through. Let WestJet buy them and see how they like it there. Call the competition bureau. This deal would make Air Canada too much of a monopoly!
Victory wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:55 am
Send the 330's to Mainline, NB's to Rouge. Sell the 310's. Pilot's, the application portal is over there.
Judging by your posts you're a relatively new hire at AC, and with not much industry experience. So we all get why you're mad, but I'll leave this here for you:
Victory wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:19 pm
Amazing how easy it is to redirect hate towards fellow pilots instead of the company that hired them.
Victory wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:01 pm
I'm surprised you guys don't learn you don't get anyone on your side by acting like jerks.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Fanblade » Mon May 20, 2019 9:40 am

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:08 pm
The difference between Jazz and Transat is that Jazz operates wholly in an area that is permitted to be contracted out and does not require AC pilots on the AC pilot seniority list operating the aircraft. Less than 80ish seats.

Transat flies aircraft that can not be contracted out and require pilots on the AC pilot seniority list operating them. Transat pilots can not fly those aircraft on behalf of AC without integration. Nor can AC just buy Transat and ditch its employees. The only option becomes integration.

Unless you want to open the door to pilots not on our seniority list operating WB aircraft for AC? We have to integrate.

Opening that door would be a very very bad idea. Like really bad idea. :shock: The speed at which AC would start transferring work to Transat would make your head spin.
AC can also sit down with ACPA to come to an agreement so they don't have to integrate TS pilots and planes.

They could but it would be extremely risky for ACPA to open that door. Once you allow pilots not on your seniority list to operate aircraft of behalf of your employer, it’s usually gone forever. Whipsaw starts. The lower cost operation will constantly be a threat to the higher cost operation.

ACPA has threatened strike to prevent this from happening in the past. I would say it is highly doubtful ACPA would go that route now. I can’t see it being anything but a nonstarter.

Besides AC won’t want to run 3 separate entities. What they may gain in lower cost they lose in extra overhead. Rouge was created to compete with Transat in particular. Once Transat is part of the AC family they don’t need two entities doing the same work. One of those entities will disappear. This is the wrinkle that most haven’t considered as of yet. Probably Rouge is my guess. I asked a manager directly who was involved in the negotiations about what happens to Rouge. I didn’t get a straightforward answer. I took it as Rouge will probably disappear. But that might simply be my bias/interpretation on what he said. Nevertheless I touched on something he didn’t want to or couldn’t yet freely discuss.

AC won’t want to forgo any synergies simply because it’s employees don’t want to merge.

I will give you that it is possible the plan might be to merge Transat with Rouge. But I don’t know if the labour board would accept that on an integration basis. Currently AC pilots are on leave from AC to operate at Rouge. It’s a twist I’m not sure about.

But AC pilots won’t just sit back and watch as they lose access to a bunch of work, which they have been doing as well, to pilots not on their seniority list. That won’t be an acceptable option.

It maybe tough to swallow for some. Integration is required in some form and history tells me it is highly doubtful that ACPA will do anything but go to the wall on the issue that AC pilots on the AC seniority list are the only pilots that can operate aircraft above 80ish seats on behalf of AC.

If you believe that AC will just do it anyway? Then you believe AC intends to go to war with its pilots. I don’t see it. Starting a war you can’t win? In fact we already have had preemptive memos from management making it crystal clear they will follow the contract and have no intention of subverting it.

I think they would like this integration as peaceful as possible because the quicker is happens, the quicker the synergies.
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by TFTMB heavy » Mon May 20, 2019 4:46 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:40 am
TFTMB heavy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:08 pm
The difference between Jazz and Transat is that Jazz operates wholly in an area that is permitted to be contracted out and does not require AC pilots on the AC pilot seniority list operating the aircraft. Less than 80ish seats.

Transat flies aircraft that can not be contracted out and require pilots on the AC pilot seniority list operating them. Transat pilots can not fly those aircraft on behalf of AC without integration. Nor can AC just buy Transat and ditch its employees. The only option becomes integration.

Unless you want to open the door to pilots not on our seniority list operating WB aircraft for AC? We have to integrate.

Opening that door would be a very very bad idea. Like really bad idea. :shock: The speed at which AC would start transferring work to Transat would make your head spin.
AC can also sit down with ACPA to come to an agreement so they don't have to integrate TS pilots and planes.

They could but it would be extremely risky for ACPA to open that door. Once you allow pilots not on your seniority list to operate aircraft of behalf of your employer, it’s usually gone forever. Whipsaw starts. The lower cost operation will constantly be a threat to the higher cost operation.

ACPA has threatened strike to prevent this from happening in the past. I would say it is highly doubtful ACPA would go that route now. I can’t see it being anything but a nonstarter.

Besides AC won’t want to run 3 separate entities. What they may gain in lower cost they lose in extra overhead. Rouge was created to compete with Transat in particular. Once Transat is part of the AC family they don’t need two entities doing the same work. One of those entities will disappear. This is the wrinkle that most haven’t considered as of yet. Probably Rouge is my guess. I asked a manager directly who was involved in the negotiations about what happens to Rouge. I didn’t get a straightforward answer. I took it as Rouge will probably disappear. But that might simply be my bias/interpretation on what he said. Nevertheless I touched on something he didn’t want to or couldn’t yet freely discuss.

AC won’t want to forgo any synergies simply because it’s employees don’t want to merge.

I will give you that it is possible the plan might be to merge Transat with Rouge. But I don’t know if the labour board would accept that on an integration basis. Currently AC pilots are on leave from AC to operate at Rouge. It’s a twist I’m not sure about.

But AC pilots won’t just sit back and watch as they lose access to a bunch of work, which they have been doing as well, to pilots not on their seniority list. That won’t be an acceptable option.

It maybe tough to swallow for some. Integration is required in some form and history tells me it is highly doubtful that ACPA will do anything but go to the wall on the issue that AC pilots on the AC seniority list are the only pilots that can operate aircraft above 80ish seats on behalf of AC.

If you believe that AC will just do it anyway? Then you believe AC intends to go to war with its pilots. I don’t see it. Starting a war you can’t win? In fact we already have had preemptive memos from management making it crystal clear they will follow the contract and have no intention of subverting it.

I think they would like this integration as peaceful as possible because the quicker is happens, the quicker the synergies.
I never said nor implied that AC would not follow the agreement.

Only time will tell how it will play out. Integration is an expensive way of doing it.
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Last edited by TFTMB heavy on Tue May 21, 2019 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon May 20, 2019 9:01 pm

Question.

I just took a look at Rouge’s 767 fleet. A couple are 16 and 19 years old, the rest are between 23 and 29 years old.
So the babies in the fleet likely have upwards of 80,000 hours, the others 120,000 hours plus. They cannot be sustained for more than a few more years. Air Transat’s 310s are getting retired and cut up at lower hours than that.
What was the wide body fleet renewal plan at Rouge ? Were you supposed to get 787s, or 777s from mainline ?

Or is the plan A330s from Transat (we have 20)? Or is there no wide body renewal plan at all for Rouge once AT is gone ?
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Tue May 21, 2019 4:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon May 20, 2019 9:03 pm

Duplicate
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TheStig
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by TheStig » Tue May 21, 2019 8:24 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:01 pm
Question.

I just took a look at Rouge’s 767 fleet. A couple are 16 and 19 years old, the rest are between 23 and 29 years old.
So the babies in the fleet likely have upwards of 80,000 hours, the others 120,000 hours plus. They cannot be sustained for more than a few more years. Air Transat’s 310s are getting retired and cut up at lower hours than that.
What was the wide body fleet renewal plan at Rouge ? Were you supposed to get 787s, or 777s from mainline ?

Or is the plan A330s from Transat (we have 20)? Or is there no wide body renewal plan at all for Rouge once AT is gone ?
Those are important questions. Calin Rovinescu stated that replacing or updating the Rouge 767 fleet would be the next order of business but that was a few months ago. I believe this acquisition massively alters the fleet plan and overall strategy that Air Canada had been focusing on for the past 8 years. We wont hear anything until the transaction is completed with respect to the 'new' plan.

I would guess that over the next few months the airline will give a few details publicly about the direction of the airline to investors and start negotiating the terms of new contracts with union leadership who will not be able to reveal details about the fleet plan due to NDA's, unless the airline makes an order. The ACPA CA currently has scope language with ratios, baselines and various triggers etc which requires ML fleet renewal in order for the rouge fleet to be updated.

I think we share the same concerns about the combined fleet shrinking. As you've mentioned, the A310's and B767's are nearing the end of there service life. AC has 13 B787 options and will be introducing 4 more A330's this year, but without another aircraft order the combined WB fleet stands to shrink by about 15 over the next 5-10 years, however Transat has 15 A321N LR's on order correct?

More questions than answers at this point, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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altiplano
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by altiplano » Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:01 pm
Question.

I just took a look at Rouge’s 767 fleet. A couple are 16 and 19 years old, the rest are between 23 and 29 years old.
So the babies in the fleet likely have upwards of 80,000 hours, the others 120,000 hours plus. They cannot be sustained for more than a few more years. Air Transat’s 310s are getting retired and cut up at lower hours than that.
What was the wide body fleet renewal plan at Rouge ? Were you supposed to get 787s, or 777s from mainline ?

Or is the plan A330s from Transat (we have 20)? Or is there no wide body renewal plan at all for Rouge once AT is gone ?
They have it written in the contract that LCC WB renewal has to be 787 or smaller, can't be 777 or 350-1000... could be 330...

I suspect AC will put the best of the combined 330 fleet at Rouge. What age are Transat's 330s?

As Stig mentioned, they would have to replace the remaining mainline 767s with new or newish aircraft before that could take place though, they also have to meet baselines and ratios in the fin count at mainline... I imagine more 330s will be sourced or possibly Boeing will eat some major discounts on the remaining 787 options to make up for the MAX fiasco...
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ahramin
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by ahramin » Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue May 21, 2019 9:58 am

ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
The oldest A330 is 23 years old. But I dont think any TS A330 has ever reached 100K hours yet, so they all have many years left in them.
We still have 14 321LR on order since one was already delivered. It’s already doing transatlantic flights. We also will have a couple Non LRs.... not certain if NEO or not for those two.
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Just another canuck
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Just another canuck » Tue May 21, 2019 10:09 am

ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Just imagine! All you AC folks could have the opportunity to fly a piece of history! 😬😉
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Victory » Tue May 21, 2019 10:44 am

ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Is the pilot? I seem to recall he was a former drug smuggler. Not sure how the Transat background check missed that.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by TheStig » Tue May 21, 2019 10:46 am

Just another canuck wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:09 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Just imagine! All you AC folks could have the opportunity to fly a piece of history! 😬😉
If they play their cards right there will be a few pilots who will have logged time in both gliders.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by yycflyguy » Tue May 21, 2019 11:01 am

Just another canuck wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:09 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Just imagine! All you AC folks could have the opportunity to fly a piece of history! 😬😉
I also flew the B767 Gimili Glider..... if I can get the A330 Azores bird I should qualify for my Glider Endorsement, right?
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by TSAM » Tue May 21, 2019 11:01 am

Victory wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:44 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Is the pilot? I seem to recall he was a former drug smuggler. Not sure how the Transat background check missed that.
I don't know about that, but do you really want to go there? There's past AC pilots that could be listed on the wall of shame. How'd they pass screening?

I really don't know what your beef is, the majority if not all want this if it goes through to be fair, professional and good for all.
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:58 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:22 am
What age are Transat's 330s?
All over the map. Some less than 5 years old, some really old ones. Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
The oldest A330 is 23 years old. But I dont think any TS A330 has ever reached 100K hours yet, so they all have many years left in them.
We still have 14 321LR on order since one was already delivered. It’s already doing transatlantic flights. We also will have a couple Non LRs.... not certain if NEO or not for those two.
Last I heard they're to be CEO
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by BTD » Tue May 21, 2019 11:40 am

From the year end financial results for Transat. If this does go through I wish all the best to our Transat colleagues coming over. Hopefully we can work out a fair amalgamation.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by av8ts » Wed May 29, 2019 12:06 pm

This meme has so many uses
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by jpilot77 » Wed May 29, 2019 3:42 pm

Hahahahaha, that meme works for everything.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by altiplano » Thu May 30, 2019 12:01 pm

Letko, Broseau - 20% stakeholder in AT - opposes purchase at $13.
Transat is worth a lot more than that. That's not interesting, "says Peter Letko about the price of $ 13 per share - or about $ 520 million in total - mentioned two weeks ago.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu May 30, 2019 12:12 pm

He wants a higher return on his investment. But it's unlikely anyone is going to offer more. The government could stop the deal but it seems unlikely.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by altiplano » Thu May 30, 2019 12:34 pm

Agreed, but if he balks at $13, and gets other shareholders onside to vote it down, is Rovinescu going to throw more at it? He did at aeroplan... I'm unsure here though.

If voted down by the shareholders, the stock price would tank.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu May 30, 2019 1:29 pm

Yeah the whole world knows he's a lowballer now so they might try.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Jettime3 » Thu May 30, 2019 3:43 pm

Victory wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:44 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Is the pilot? I seem to recall he was a former drug smuggler. Not sure how the Transat background check missed that.
2016, two Transat A330 guys, arrested in Scotland for being intoxicated then getting away with it because of a glitch , authorities lost the blood samples. Another guy who likes the white powder was rejected twice by AC is currently flying as an FO the A330 . And these pilots are going to go above AC pilots? ACPA is not ALPA! And TS is the one looking for buyers not the other way around. How is it DOH comes to play ? Not even an Air Canada subsidiary.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by altiplano » Thu May 30, 2019 3:58 pm

Maybe those guys are douchebags, but there are douchebags everywhere...
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by CanadianEh » Thu May 30, 2019 5:24 pm

Jettime3 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:43 pm
Victory wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:44 am
ahramin wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
Not to mention the Azores bird is still in the fleet.
Is the pilot? I seem to recall he was a former drug smuggler. Not sure how the Transat background check missed that.
2016, two Transat A330 guys, arrested in Scotland for being intoxicated then getting away with it because of a glitch , authorities lost the blood samples. Another guy who likes the white powder was rejected twice by AC is currently flying as an FO the A330 . And these pilots are going to go above AC pilots? ACPA is not ALPA! And TS is the one looking for buyers not the other way around. How is it DOH comes to play ? Not even an Air Canada subsidiary.

Now you know how Jazz pilots felt when they were presented with that piece of garbage 17 YEAR contract that involved integrating Georgian pilots DOH. :goodman:
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