Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

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GoHomeLeg
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Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by GoHomeLeg » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:17 am

I'm curious. Several senior older pilots at SWG are leaving for AC. Were they told they'd have a very quick upgrade on a narrow body? Is the number of low experience pilots too big at AC?
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indieadventurer
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by indieadventurer » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:09 am

No, Air Canada would never say such a thing during an interview to a candidate. My guess is that, long-term over the course of a career Air Canada provides the best job opportunity with respect to pay, schedule and pension in Canada. It’s nothing against Sunwing, it’s just that it’s Air Canada and when the opportunity presents itself most people will not turn it down.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:37 am

Job security can't be overstated either.
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Brize
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Brize » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:33 am

If you consider 2.5-3.5 years fast. Most people would say so, considering it's at a major airline.
Captain status pay begins at "Activation Date", which is set at 9 months after the Bid Award of position. Training usually begins 9mo-12mo after award, but sometimes less, sometimes more depending on what position you bid from. The difference in pay is paid retroactively after you pass your Command Final Line-Check. There is no guarantee of passing the upgrade. You can expect extra evaluations above the minimum required during the assessment.

Now consider the potential Air Transat purchase. The timeline could significantly change. There is no way to know.
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bcflyer
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by bcflyer » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am

GoHomeLeg wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:17 am
I'm curious. Several senior older pilots at SWG are leaving for AC. Were they told they'd have a very quick upgrade on a narrow body? Is the number of low experience pilots too big at AC?
I’m not sure if you are asking two individual questions or if they are two related questions. The time to upgrade has already been covered. As for the experience level it’s pretty much all over the map right now. Having said that, there are still a lot of pilots coming with a lot of experience.
In case you were wondering, experience level has absolutely nothing to do with who is upgraded at A/C. It is strictly seniority. If you have the seniority and can pass all the training evaluations (there are quite a few of them for any initial upgrade at AC) then you get the upgrade. Experience will obviously help with the process but it is not a pre requisite.
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Old fella
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Old fella » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:09 am

bcflyer wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:05 am
GoHomeLeg wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:17 am
I'm curious. Several senior older pilots at SWG are leaving for AC. Were they told they'd have a very quick upgrade on a narrow body? Is the number of low experience pilots too big at AC?
I’m not sure if you are asking two individual questions or if they are two related questions. The time to upgrade has already been covered. As for the experience level it’s pretty much all over the map right now. Having said that, there are still a lot of pilots coming with a lot of experience.
In case you were wondering, experience level has absolutely nothing to do with who is upgraded at A/C. It is strictly seniority. If you have the seniority and can pass all the training evaluations (there are quite a few of them for any initial upgrade at AC) then you get the upgrade. Experience will obviously help with the process but it is not a pre requisite.
What is the hardest part of command training if I may ask since you mentioned there quite a few evaluation processes along the route to getting the four stripes.
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bcflyer
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by bcflyer » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:04 am

If I had to pick something I guess it would be the command sims. They aren’t as bad as some would say but they definitely make you work a bit.
I’m not saying that upgrades at A/C are any more difficult than at other airlines. There is nothing extra special about the process. It is a bit more intensive than some upgrades I’ve done in the past, but certainty don’t feel like I’m superior to anyone else simply because of the 4th bar. Lol.
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tailgunner
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by tailgunner » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:22 am

Old Fella,
The Command Sims are a bit different than what most pilots have been exposed to. Usually, in normal simulator events, all failures and scenarios are related. For example, you may be given an overheating hydraulic pump. This will lead you through a series of steps which may include the use of memory drills and checklists. You may have to secure an engine or turn off said hydraulic system, which may lead to reduced aircraft performance. These event sets usually progress and lead from one to another.
The Command sims (2 sims) are very different than that, and each other. The first type gives the candidate multiple unrelated failures, often at the very same time. For example, you may be faced with a cargo door that has separated from the aircraft, destroying the engine, and damaging the tail. This gives you a rapid depressurization, engine fire/severe damage, and control issues maybe manifesting themselves as a jammed elevator. The weather will always be at minimums , and often the diversion airports present poor approaches, with poor runway conditions. There will be numerous drills, checklists to be done. The candidate will have to prioritize the events, and be forced to use ALL available resources. It may take upwards of 3 hours to finish.
The next type of Command sim. also presents a surprise factor, but there may not be a checklist to reference. There might not even be a good outcome available. Time may be a huge factor. For example, you may be given a cargo fire that will not go out. The closest runway may not be long enough, the runway that is long enough may be a 25 minute flight away.....
Decisions...
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Old fella
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:52 pm

Thanks for that Tailgunner, interesting scenarios for sure on command upgrades. I am not an airline pilot, never was but I guess anything and everything is certainly possible. Going back from years gone by Southern Airways DC-9 dual engine failure and attempted forced landing on a highway, Alaska Airlines MD-83 elevator jackscrew control issue, various DC-10 incidents and the like. From your commentary and knowledge I gather it is the decision making process and how you go about that, not the outcome as that won’t be positive aka cargo door blowing off, smashing up an engine and pounding shit out of an elevator flying over the pole heading to China. After that session ya deserve a couple of craft beers for sure.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:42 pm

The command sims are diverse in the directions they can go, but they are manageable and the simulated aircraft should end up on a runway at the end of the day. Although it may not be reusable.

There is no sense training or demonstrating ability in a hopeless scenario.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:31 pm

BTD wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:42 pm
The command sims are diverse in the directions they can go, but they are manageable and the simulated aircraft should end up on a runway at the end of the day. Although it may not be reusable.

There is no sense training or demonstrating ability in a hopeless scenario.
Kobayashi Maru!
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:11 am

I think TC will implement that training in the 23rd century.
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Say Altitude
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Say Altitude » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm

Current failure rates on the Command Sims are 80% - due in no small part to the relative lack of experience of the people attempting the upgrade.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by digits_ » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:18 pm

Say Altitude wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Current failure rates on the Command Sims are 80% - due in no small part to the relative lack of experience of the people attempting the upgrade.
Wow. Not a stellar reference for the training department then...
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Last edited by digits_ on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Gonzodriver » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:47 pm

Say Altitude wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Current failure rates on the Command Sims are 80% - due in no small part to the relative lack of experience of the people attempting the upgrade.
I'm surprised it's that's high!
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:32 pm

I doubt if it is that high. Maybe 80% success?

I was doing continuous line training before the recent groundings and between end of December through February I only sat in the left seat once. The rest was all upgrade captains most of whom had already done the command sims. If it was anywhere near that high we would have run out of people. And all that I can remember were excellent.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:45 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:18 pm
Say Altitude wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Current failure rates on the Command Sims are 80% - due in no small part to the relative lack of experience of the people attempting the upgrade.
Wow. Not a stellar reference for the training department then...
Are you going to believe everything you read on the internet? It's not 80%.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by digits_ » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:03 pm

CL-Skadoo! wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:45 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:18 pm
Say Altitude wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm
Current failure rates on the Command Sims are 80% - due in no small part to the relative lack of experience of the people attempting the upgrade.
Wow. Not a stellar reference for the training department then...
Are you going to believe everything you read on the internet? It's not 80%.
No, not at all. My reply is valid if the information to which I replied was correct. If it's not, the reply can be ignored.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by TheStig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:23 am

The failure rate is no where near 80%. You don't fail your upgrade if your Command Simulator sessions aren't successful, you continue line indoc and attempt the command simulator sessions again after additional training.

A candidates entire upgrade performance is an evaluation through the simulator, line indoc and rides which are conducted with a variety of Training Captain and Check Pilots, often spread across multiple bases. You don't fail or pass based on one persons opinion of you.

"Would I be comfortable having this individual fly my family?" That's the most common barometer you'll hear in aviation, whether it's for a PPL or airline Captain.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Old fella » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 am

TheStig wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:23 am
The failure rate is no where near 80%. You don't fail your upgrade if your Command Simulator sessions aren't successful, you continue line indoc and attempt the command simulator sessions again after additional training.

A candidates entire upgrade performance is an evaluation through the simulator, line indoc and rides which are conducted with a variety of Training Captain and Check Pilots, often spread across multiple bases. You don't fail or pass based on one persons opinion of you.

"Would I be comfortable having this individual fly my family?" That's the most common barometer you'll hear in aviation, whether it's for a PPL or airline Captain.
I imagine command candidates have to demonstrate their ability to handle very high density, complicated approach and airspace situations . Are there airports that are specifically mandated for this purpose in line training after all simulator sessions are done.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 am

During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.

The Faa has special qualification airports listed that crews have to meet specific requirements. Non requires sim training.

The company also has special qualification airports beyond the FAA ones where they have a set of requirements before flying there. Those are airport specific and may require a sim leg or not.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by TheStig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:08 am

The objective of any training, initial upgrade or otherwise, would be to have a pilot re-enter the line flying with the right amount of confidence to safely operate day to day while being equipped with the proper toolbox to handle anything out of the norm. Transitioning from right-seat to left-seat is ideal but not always the case. Upgrading on the same type is like buying a new home with your wife, upgrading on a new type is like renting a new place with your tinder date, it's going to be a little akward.

Overconfidence can be an issue but for the most part, the opposite is true. Every pilot wants to feel like the master of their aircraft but that only comes with time on type. There is no amount of training that will get a pilot as comfortable in their new seat with a fresh endorsement as they were in after thousands of hours on their previous type. Nobody has the same background experience nor career path once at the airline. Line indoc is adapted to address areas of a pilots background that have not been covered. Captains upgrading from narrow body aircraft to wide bodies have a lot to cover with respect to overseas operations and taxiing techniques. A pilot with prior wide body experience would be more comfortable with the environment.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by yycflyguy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

BTD wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 am
During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.
That's in an ideal world. Reality is that you do your line indoctrination to where the company pulls the pairings and where the Line Indoc Captain's seniority bidding gets.

The command sims are not really as depicted previously by other posters. They used to be multiple, unrelated failures that were created by the "evaluator" but now they are nothing worse than a busy LOE that are scripted. It's a kinder, gentler AC. I have heard that the failure rate is unacceptably high right now, but not at 80% failure. Even with a 20% failure rate it creates a lot of simulator demand in an already maxed out sim availability. This is the time to screen and/or offer more training to those that need it.

Good post TheStig
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by altiplano » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:17 am

Is it failure? Or people walking away during the upgrade before they potentially fail and get a strike against?

I know a couple that were the latter I've the past year or so.... in the end it's an unsuccessful upgrade attempt so same:same I guess...

I'd be surprised if 80%, I'd be surprised if 20% even... but I'm not in training department so maybe I'm out of the loop on this...
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:05 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
BTD wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 am
During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.
That's in an ideal world. Reality is that you do your line indoctrination to where the company pulls the pairings and where the Line Indoc Captain's seniority bidding gets.

The command sims are not really as depicted previously by other posters. They used to be multiple, unrelated failures that were created by the "evaluator" but now they are nothing worse than a busy LOE that are scripted. It's a kinder, gentler AC. I have heard that the failure rate is unacceptably high right now, but not at 80% failure. Even with a 20% failure rate it creates a lot of simulator demand in an already maxed out sim availability. This is the time to screen and/or offer more training to those that need it.

Good post TheStig
As a Line Training Captain I am aware that the poor guys that fly with me end up going where I'm going anyway. That is why I included "supposed" in my comments. But my response was to OldFella's question above.

The reality that I see is that most people are relatively strong. They are almost all willing to listen and have discussions and have great CRM. I usually tell them at the start that I am here to learn too, that's what I like about this job. So if they have a tip or experience from the past lets talk about it. I'm all ears.
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