Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

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160tonoaha
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Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by 160tonoaha »

So far the majority of what’s been said is that if the acquisition goes through, from a pilots point of view, Air Transat pilots will be integrated into AC because of the scope clause regarding 80+ seat aircraft being flown by pilots on the AC seniority list.

Judgement has also been passed that if ACPA let’s Transat operate separately then that opens the can of worms to a plethora of complications, namely when protecting air canada flying.

Is it possible though, that Air Transat and Air Canada operate separately in similar fashion like KLM/Air France or Lufthansa/Austrian? Because those pilot groups are not on the same seniority list right? And surely they have scope clauses regarding seat capacity/pilot group that flies those routes. Namely with KLM city hopper and Lufthansa Regional, etc.

Just looking for some healthy discussion on if that’s a possibility. And if it’s not then why?

Thank you.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by flyinhigh »

In the two examples you provided there is one major factor, namely different countries.

KLM/Air France - Dutch company based in netherlands, Air France which is obviously French.

Lufthansa/Austrian - German and Austrian.

Yes, these companies are owned by the same parent company. However, with the different countries/borders I don't see how you could have one group of pilots. Here (Transat/AC) we literally could walk to each others head offices and have coffee.

Again, think of the ramifications if AC wishes to cut cost in your proposed scenario of keeping it seperate.

CR to ACPA - "Guys, you need to fly the 777 for $240 per hour"

ACPA - "Go fly a kite, never going to happen"

CR - "Well I guess we'll have to go talk to your partners at Transat and shift them over there"

Now I know there is scope language and all. People will say that, "it will never happen due to scope", but the problem is items like Rouge where never going to happen, yet it did with outside forces.
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altiplano
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by altiplano »

A more accurate comparison would be, Lufthansa owned, Swiss.

You have Mainline, Swiss International and Regional, Swiss European.

Up until 2016, Swiss International operated Airbus 340s & 320s, and Swiss European operated RJs.

When the Mainline Swiss International pilots told management there was no way they would fly newly ordered 777s for cut rates, they just walked over to the Swiss European pilots who were happy to do it for even less.

Swiss European was rebranded Swiss Global, and the RJ guys were now 777 guys, then the C-Series went there too and Mainline flying was pressured as 340s and 319s were retired.

Since then there have been moves to bring some of that fleet back to Mainline Swiss, and integrate the airlines/pilots but you can bet at cut rates, and significant contract concessions... damage is done, and we'd be smart to learn the lesson.

AC very much dances to Lufthansa's jingle, and I have no doubt Rovinescu learns his lessons.

AC Pilots owns AC's flying. Period.

Paint the aircraft how you want, put whatever flight attendants your want in the back, configure the passenger seats on the roof for all I care, but no more second tier pay scales or contracts for AC Pilots.
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Dry Guy
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Dry Guy »

altiplano wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:33 am no more second tier pay scales or contracts
If he got you once it's already over. Now he knows he owns you and you will always flinch given the right pressures.
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Duke Point
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Duke Point »

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Last edited by Duke Point on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
160tonoaha
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by 160tonoaha »

So DP, if one list doesn't mean much, why even bother merging the transat pilot's over? In your example wouldn't ACPA let Transat continue with the right pressures and "deal" alike the 10-year deal that caused the division you speak of?

Say CR offers the 500+ million cash in transat's bank as a bonus to the pilot's to accept a deal to operate transat separately. 500 million divided by 4300 pilots is around ~120k bonus to everyone, say an additional 10% raises, more wide-body captain spots, so long as they let transat operate separately. You don't think ACPA would enshrine this and open up another can of worms? In addition, you don't think the last 2500 numbers that are sitting less than 5 years seniority right now who would gladly accept a 120k bonus installed in their bank account? Let's not forget, AC is getting Transat at a wash when you consider its assets and cash. It costs them nothing to divide us further.

I'm genuinely curious if there's a way AC pilots won't get to fly transat planes. Everything has a price, even the scope clause. In the world of instant gratification, I wouldn't put the scenario too far out of a left-field that this may not be as much of a merger situation that everyone is talking about. You are all right, I hope everyone is reading this recognizing that now, more than ever, we have to stand united.

Thanks guys. Good discussion.
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jetpilot
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by jetpilot »

AC Pilots owns AC's flying. Period.

Paint the aircraft how you want, put whatever flight attendants your want in the back, configure the passenger seats on the roof for all I care, but no more second tier pay scales or contracts for AC Pilots.

Every At's pilots are supporting you! we all want to be on that list!

jet
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rudder
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by rudder »

The AC pilots have been consistent about subcontracting to non-seniority pilots when it comes to AC Express/AC Regional above 76 seats and you think that all of a sudden they are going to allow subcontracting of A330 flying?

I can see a scenario where CR brings a bag of cash to the table requesting that the Transat flying be added to the LCC fleet limit (which is already maxed out with the current Rouge operation). Problem is that would add another 600 pilots to the de facto b scale for pilots at AC.

I believe that to be scope compliant that Rouge flying will have to be folded back in to mainline pay and work rules, leaving the Transat operation as the LCC carrier per the ACPA contract.

It will be interesting to watch this play out but the AC pilots have been consistent for decades about scope. The Transat transaction is unlikely to change that.
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Duke Point
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Duke Point »

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Last edited by Duke Point on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fanblade
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Fanblade »

160tonoaha wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:02 pm
Say CR offers the 500+ million cash in transat's bank as a bonus to the pilot's to accept a deal to operate transat separately. 500 million divided by 4300 pilots is around ~120k bonus to everyone, say an additional 10% raises, more wide-body captain spots, so long as they let transat operate separately. You don't think ACPA would enshrine this and open up another can of worms? In addition, you don't think the last 2500 numbers that are sitting less than 5 years seniority right now who would gladly accept a 120k bonus installed in their bank account? Let's not forget, AC is getting Transat at a wash when you consider its assets and cash. It costs them nothing to divide us further.
120K with 30 years of service left? That’s 4K/year amortized over a career. In other words mice nuts for taking an incredible risk with your career and future earnings.
160tonoaha wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:02 pm
I'm genuinely curious if there's a way AC pilots won't get to fly transat planes. Everything has a price, even the scope clause. In the world of instant gratification, I wouldn't put the scenario too far out of a left-field that this may not be as much of a merger situation that everyone is talking about. You are all right, I hope everyone is reading this recognizing that now, more than ever, we have to stand united.
Scope is always for sale. It’s always at the bargaining table. Always. However it is always about trying to slide the goal post. ( wanting 190’s at Express for example) What you are suggesting is removing the net.

Look the two groups will merge into one seniority list. Transat may however replace Rouge as the leisure carrier. (Likely in my opinion.) IOW we may very well end up with one list and two separate companies just as AC and Rouge are today. I don’t know how many AC pilots will want to bid a position at Transat. Particularly senior AC pilots.
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Fanblade
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:35 am The AC pilots have been consistent about subcontracting to non-seniority pilots when it comes to AC Express/AC Regional above 76 seats and you think that all of a sudden they are going to allow subcontracting of A330 flying?

I can see a scenario where CR brings a bag of cash to the table requesting that the Transat flying be added to the LCC fleet limit (which is already maxed out with the current Rouge operation). Problem is that would add another 600 pilots to the de facto b scale for pilots at AC.

I believe that to be scope compliant that Rouge flying will have to be folded back in to mainline pay and work rules, leaving the Transat operation as the LCC carrier per the ACPA contract.

It will be interesting to watch this play out but the AC pilots have been consistent for decades about scope. The Transat transaction is unlikely to change that.

I couldn’t say it better.
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Fanblade
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Fanblade »

160tonoaha wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:07 am
Is it possible though, that Air Transat and Air Canada operate separately in similar fashion like KLM/Air France or Lufthansa/Austrian? Because those pilot groups are not on the same seniority list right? And surely they have scope clauses regarding seat capacity/pilot group that flies those routes. Namely with KLM city hopper and Lufthansa Regional, etc.
Labour laws in the EU are vastly different than North America. In the EU a union can not stake claim to work like we can in Canada and the US. If they could, they would.
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Fanblade
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Fanblade »

Duke Point wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:12 am Being on the same list doesn't mean anything anymore at AC anyway.
Really?

Option A - One list, one company, one contract.

Option B - One list, separate company, separate contract.

Option C - Separate list, separate company, separate contract.

I would certainly prefer option A. But option B is far superior than option C.

To suggest otherwise is not considering the consequences.

How many less jobs would AC pilots not have access to?

How many less AC pilots would there be?

What would the pay scales look like at Rouge if they had to negotiate on their own?

How would this upcoming merger impact AC pilots as a smaller pilot group and now introducing a third pilot group competing for AC work?

How long before the competition between separate groups leads to a race to the bottom?
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DanWEC
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by DanWEC »

Just remember guys, any renegotiation that comes with a cash bonus attached is bribery, and in some manner will not likely be in favour of the pilot group as a whole, plain and simple. They're buying votes from people.
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Duke Point
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by Duke Point »

Fanblade wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:05 am
Duke Point wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:12 am Being on the same list doesn't mean anything anymore at AC anyway.
Really?

Option A - One list, one company, one contract.

Option B - One list, separate company, separate contract.

Option C - Separate list, separate company, separate contract.

I would certainly prefer option A. But option B is far superior than option C.

To suggest otherwise is not considering the consequences.

How many less jobs would AC pilots not have access to?

How many less AC pilots would there be?

What would the pay scales look like at Rouge if they had to negotiate on their own?

How would this upcoming merger impact AC pilots as a smaller pilot group and now introducing a third pilot group competing for AC work?

How long before the competition between separate groups leads to a race to the bottom?
The point I was trying to make was that a single list with a massive variance that is B-Scale (Rouge) completely undermines the concept of "one list". I need to present no further example of this than the 320 YYZ flying before and after LOU74. Its perfectly clear how useless a single list can be.

DP.
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by ToolShed »

Dry Guy wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:55 am
altiplano wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:33 am no more second tier pay scales or contracts
If he got you once it's already over. Now he knows he owns you and you will always flinch given the right pressures.
Haha. Spoken like a true scared pilot.
I bet you flew sky divers for free.
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jetpilot
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Re: Scope, Transat merger, other examples.

Post by jetpilot »

Anyone want to share your meeting on 17 September?
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