Air Canada Pay

[schnitzel2k3]

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The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.

['97 Tercel]

[Ki-ll]

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The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.

That's too bad. It was a very interesting insight even though some people disagreed.

[schnitzel2k3]

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The goal of editing my posts is to allow this thread to return to some form of discussion regarding Air Canada pay, versus Corporate vs Air Canada, in the hopes of halting the circular arguments.

That's too bad. It was a very interesting insight even though some people disagreed.

Still lots of good insight to be had. Danield had a good post early on, and altiplano made some good points regarding benefit package changes over the last 7 years.

The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.

[metalbusdriver]

I would be curious to know what the average Year 1 New Hire t4 would be. We know the pay rate per month and hourly rate curious how much they are actually flying in a block since they are so short. Sometimes hourly pay rate can be deceiving one way or another.

[TheStig]

The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.

Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Each of the first 4 years of course.

[AOW]

I would be curious to know what the average Year 1 New Hire t4 would be. We know the pay rate per month and hourly rate curious how much they are actually flying in a block since they are so short. Sometimes hourly pay rate can be deceiving one way or another.

T4 covering 10 months as 1st yr FO (YYZ 320)

FCA5442F-F7E7-4EBA-8D0D-8F2C760543E3.jpeg (379.1 KiB) Viewed 5267 times

Final paystub of 2018:

25A54E9F-2B8E-4544-B562-F9A3434425D6.jpeg (534.77 KiB) Viewed 5267 times

[bearitus]

That's actually better than I expected. As someone hopefully moving to AC next year from left seat at Express I will have to work a bunch of overtime to make ends meet and pay my mortgage. Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?

[FighterPilot]

Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?

If you get on with Rouge and pick up a draft trip only once a month that would be very easy to do. Picking up a LAS turn at first year pay gets you just shy of $800 before tax. The whole OT thing is likely going to change at Rouge with the new duty rules and make it harder to pick up draft. That being said, you shouldn’t have to pick up OT to make a living wage.

[bearitus]

Is 75-80k a year gross do-able for a first year AC FO with max overtime or am I dreaming?

If you get on with Rouge and pick up a draft trip only once a month that would be very easy to do. Picking up a LAS turn at first year pay gets you just shy of $800 before tax. The whole OT thing is likely going to change at Rouge with the new duty rules and make it harder to pick up draft. That being said, you shouldn’t have to pick up OT to make a living wage.

Thanks for the info. The way I see it is short term pain for long term gain.

[schnitzel2k3]

The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.

Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?

Considering top earners are making north of 300k, I don't think a 20/hr bump will make much difference to them at all, particularly when they have pick of the litter for OT and can earn significantly more going that route.

Getting rid of 3 of those years and adding 20/hr to year 4 would bring starting wages closer to where they should be, and have a greater effect on moral, IMHO.

[TheStig]

So if you were offered a) $20000 a year for four years or b) $20000 a year in eleven years for the rest of your career you would select a)?

Just highlighting the reality that every pilot is better off when the top of the pay scale is improved. When you consider that majority of the pilot group lives on the 12th year of the pay scale its easy to see why the disparity exists.

[rudder]

One word - demographics.

As the demographics of the AC pilot population change so will priorities.

There may be a logic in certain allocations, but it will be the majority in the demographic that will make the final decision.

[schnitzel2k3]

So if you were offered a) $20000 a year for four years or b) $20000 a year in eleven years for the rest of your career you would select a)?

Just highlighting the reality that every pilot is better off when the top of the pay scale is improved. When you consider that majority of the pilot group lives on the 12th year of the pay scale its easy to see why the disparity exists.

Dump 3 of those flat pay years preferably keeping year 4, and increase it by at least 20/hr. You will start seeing pension valuations go up pretty quick once people are on type pay. Year 12 and on it just gets sucked into taxes, CPP and EI. And again, your schedules are so open by that point, a little draft and you're good. You guys are earning decent money (not industry leading when you consider your international competitors), but decent. When it comes to investing, the best time to make an impact is EARLY, not later.

Pardon my analogy, if you had a house, and the foundation is cracked and leaking, but you only had enough money to either put in a skylight or fix the foundation, I would say fix the foundation.

Skylight is nice and all, but it doesn't fix the fundemental problem with your payscale. Personally it'd be nice to see both go in.

[schnitzel2k3]

Fyi I know I irritate a lot of airline guys on here, but honestly I'm in your corner.

When you win, everyone wins. Where my opinion differs is that I believe some focus should be paid particularly on increasing starting pay as you guys have it already pretty good beyond year 5 to 12.

[Mr. North]

Raises for senior pilots become harder to achieve as disparity grows with the junior pilots. In negotiations the company will always compare pay to the lowest common denominator. Therefore it becomes increasingly harder to substantiate a raise for the $200+/year pilot when guys coming in off the street are making $50k, doing more or less the same job. Want a healthy increase to year 12 pay? Bring up the low end of the pay scale so you have something better to compare yourself too.

Also, as someone mentioned, demographics will play a larger role going forward. A third if not more of the pilot group is on flat pay. Junior members are starting to make their way into the ACPA framework. Within the next couple of years I expect a shift of momentum to favour those being on the property for 10 years or less.

[simplicity]

Rising tides raise all boats.

Nix the 1-2 or 1-3 year FO flat pay bullshit, make it one or two years tops but at a higher rate. Take those bottom years and add them to the top. Brings up the whole list. Make Yr 3 new new year 1 and year 12 the new year 10.

Leave the CA list alone for the next round of bargaining. FO/RP ratios are sad compared to other legacy airlines. AC FO/CA pay ratios are as low as %48. %55-60 is industry standard, or at least was a long time ago.

Then next round, once the discrepancy between CA/FO is made smaller, go for increases across the board.

Top CA's make more than enough right now, along with taking all the VO and draft making the pay discrepancy even larger.

The argument that "you make more if you just up the top pay" is stupid and can go away. I need to make a living for the next 10 years too... you know in the time of your life when you buy a house, raise some kids. I don't hear any year 12 pilots complaining too much about the pay. A year 12 FO on the 787 picking up a draft to MEL is pulling $9,000 - $10,000! AN FO!

What is the new RP making on that same flight? $1600? If an RP on flat pay is even lucky enough to get called for draft (if they make it that far down the list) even at double time that's only $3200.

I say it again. Lift from the bottom. In time then all will correct itself. I would advocate for this even if I was not on flat pay. Because I know in the long run it would be better for everyone.

[simplicity]

The point that the OP made was 4 year pay should be addressed.

Just food for thought, what do you think would be most beneficial to new hire pilots at AC, a $20/hour bump to each of the first 4 years on the pay scale or a $20/bump to the top year (year 12)?

Removing the first two years off the payscale and making year 3 the new starting pay, then adding two new rates to the top (making current year 12, the new year 10) would fix it for everyone.

We can leave the CA pay alone until the next round of bargaining and get the percentage ratios closer right now.

This coming from someone who is planning to take the first upgrade I can. If I was in it for myself I'd advocate for raises for CA's but the dismal pay for the first 4 years and even after that (compared to anywhere else in the world) needs fixing FIRST.

[altiplano]

Fix NB Captain pay too.

Everything should be higher, but 4 year flat, NB CA, and FO:CA ratio in that order should be the focus.