Position Vs Years of Service

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controlrest
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Position Vs Years of Service

Post by controlrest »

Hello !

Just to get an idea of how many years does it take to hold different positions ? From the junior most position to the senior most . Would someone please put in the current years of service for the junior most pilot holding the positions .

With current NB CA positions going under 3 years as the new hires rush to get off flat pay; how’s this going to change by next year when the hiring slows down to a trickle .

767 RP
330 RP
777 RP
787 RP

767 FO
330 FO
787 FO
777 FO
320 FO
737 FO
EMB FO

767 CA ML
767 CA LC
330 CA
787 CA
777 CA
320 CA ML
320 CA LC
737 CA
EMB CA
330 CA
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Duke Point
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by Duke Point »

767 RP
330 RP
777 RP
787 RP
767 FO
330 FO
787 FO
777 FO
320 FO
737 FO
EMB FO
----Everything above BOTL, most in Toronto ------YVR and YUL more senior-------

767 CA ML 1750 15 yrs
767 CA LC 2100 13 yrs
330 CA 1550 20 yrs
787 CA 1100 22 yrs
777 CA 1000 23 yrs
320 CA ML 3600 3 yrs
320 CA LC 2900 5 yrs
737 CA 3600 3.5 yrs
EMB CA 3600 3 yrs

-------All pretty close numbers, maybe off a hundred numbers or so either way-------

Course right limitations will keep things stable. Widebody FO positions could backfill. Who knows if hiring will slow, as there are plenty of retirements coming. Everything could change with the merger. Who knows.

DP.
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Just another canuck
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by Just another canuck »

How many years do you need to hold a block for narrow body captain ML or wide body FO mainline?
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controlrest
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by controlrest »

Thanks DP !

Appreciate some more insight please :

1. Why is there such a big difference between the NB C & WB C ? Evidently the senior FOs rather be on WB than a NB C . What could change this ?

Not long ago the NB C was almost 8-10 yrs, at that time did the senior FOs not want to hold on to WB positions ?

2. Why are there so many WB FO positions going vacant ?
Is it because new hires are frozen to bid for 4 years of Flat pay ?

If so then once they are unfrozen the WB FO slots would all be grabbed up.

3. The NB LC is a more senior position than ML ? Another surprise ...
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Duke Point
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by Duke Point »

controlrest wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:00 am
Thanks DP !

Appreciate some more insight please :

1. Why is there such a big difference between the NB C & WB C ? Evidently the senior FOs rather be on WB than a NB C . What could change this ?

Not long ago the NB C was almost 8-10 yrs, at that time did the senior FOs not want to hold on to WB positions ?

2. Why are there so many WB FO positions going vacant ?
Is it because new hires are frozen to bid for 4 years of Flat pay ?

If so then once they are unfrozen the WB FO slots would all be grabbed up.

3. The NB LC is a more senior position than ML ? Another surprise ...
1. There's a split mentality here, those who embrace the Socialized Bidding concept and those who reject it. The Wide body skipper and 50% and higher FO widebody positions are usually very senior. No one wants below 20% on any equipment at Mainline, (some can't resist though) as it usually means a poored sked, while it doesn't matter at Rouge as everyone gets a similar block bidding advantage top to bottom. The senior FO Widebody slots at Mainline are very popular, big money at 12 year, low number of days worked and great flying. 50% up on the Widebody FO list usually are held by 12 yrs guys/gals, so the pay at minimum is pretty good. NB Captains are going junior because the flying isn't great at the lower end of the spectrum, but the money is. A lot of the new hires are in YYZ, so the cost of living necessitates a left seat asap for many, regardless of a crappy sked. Course rights (lack of) prevent pilots from moving in and out of positions, so many that might like a shot at the 220 say, because they'd be more senior, can't because they've already burned their NB Skipper course right on a 737 or 320 upgrade.

2. Flat pay for 4 years. Whats the point. People are going for lifestyle for the first 4 years. Getting a block on the 320 is better than waiting for a phone to ring on the 787 for most. Our Reserve rules are brutal. You cant "fly out" meaning they will hold you on reserve until all your monthly hours are flown. They stop flying you at 1-2 hours to go, and can fly you up to 10 hours over the monthly hour allotment, so you're effectively held "on reserve" constantly, even if you only have an hour left. The problem with bidding a WB FO slot while junior is that EVERYONE will parachute in above them as they move onto much better Formula Pay. If someone bid into a 787 FO slot in YYZ now at a seniority number of say 4400, they may show 20% from the top, but as the years go on, they would move towards the bottom, and always have a lousy sked. No one wants reserve, generally.

3. LCC is very popular, like I said, it matters not if you're the first or last pilot, the blocks are similar. Also no reserve.


There are way too many variables concerning the future to predict how anything will go over the next 5 years.
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altiplano
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by altiplano »

DP hits most of the points, but I think 20% is a bit extreme.

If you wait to be in the top of any list in almost any seat before you bid it you're going to be an RP most of your career.

The top of all the lists are pretty senior, even the NBs, some guys just like to be #1 or whatever when they could still be relatively senior on a higher paying type.

You can have a decent schedule in most positions even as a junior blockholder in my experience, or be senior on reserve. Sure, you might not get weekends off and you'll do a few red-eyes or LGAs, but that's the job.

50% or better and you're doing pretty good schedule wise on any list. Not getting summer vacation, but again, you'll be an RP your whole career if you wait for that...

I think LCC 320 is senior because there has been growth in the other seats opening opportunity for junior guys... 737, 220, EMJ have all had positions added on recent bids. There are a lot of senior mainline 320 skippers bidding into WB CA seats opening positions there. The senior LCC 320 guys are well junior to their mainline counterparts.

NB CA vs WB CA seniority difference is because of pay. And the difference is narrower at the top of the list. Still, NB CAs in Canada are underpaid. 737 or 320 CAs in the US make closer to their WB counterparts.
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Duke Point
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by Duke Point »

I meant 20% from the bottom, but I agree, a bit extreme. I should have specified. Also, what one shows for a position on the bid (paper) may not be how it turns out.

A decade and a half back, people were bidding 50% on "paper" but ended up at the bottom of lists for years due to the downturn. Its great when there is lots of training and hiring, but things can reverse themselves, literally.

DP.
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altiplano
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by altiplano »

Gotcha, I thought you meant 20% from the top.

True that what you bid isn't always how it ends up if training slows down or the guys below you bid off and aren't replaced.
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controlrest
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by controlrest »

Wondering ....


1.Hypothetically if the management filled in all the WB open slots with new hirees then will the more senior Pilots NB Capts & FOs wishing to move to WB find themselves stuck on NB ?

How many Bids are there per year ?

2.Is a new hiree frozen for 4 yrs in their PIT position ?

3.When both EMB C & 320 C positions are going under 3 yrs why would one bid EMB at a much lower pay ?

4. Each new hiree is paid an advance of 2000/- on the first, the 2nd pay is after factoring Deductions / Per Diems etc . Realistically what’s the least amount one can hope to get considering max deductions for Pension & insurance

5.Do Pilots have different staff travel perks than other employees ? Higher priority or Higher Class of travel ?
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altiplano
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by altiplano »

controlrest wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:04 am
1.Hypothetically if the management filled in all the WB open slots with new hirees then will the more senior Pilots NB Capts & FOs wishing to move to WB find themselves stuck on NB ?

How many Bids are there per year ?

2.Is a new hiree frozen for 4 yrs in their PIT position ?

3.When both EMB C & 320 C positions are going under 3 yrs why would one bid EMB at a much lower pay ?

4. Each new hiree is paid an advance of 2000/- on the first, the 2nd pay is after factoring Deductions / Per Diems etc . Realistically what’s the least amount one can hope to get considering max deductions for Pension & insurance

5.Do Pilots have different staff travel perks than other employees ? Higher priority or Higher Class of travel ?
1. When you get a position, it's yours. The only way a senior pilot could bump you would be if they were losing their own position. Either the position being reduced, or they themselves getting bumped by someone senior to them being reduced. If you get reduced or forced from a position, you get a reinstatement right to go back to the position before someone can open bid it.

Up to 6 bids per year.

2. Unless bidding Captain, changing bases, or released by management, or a junior pilot being released by management. They seem to mention on every bid to bid what you want because some may be released. I'm not sure how this is going in practise though.

3. You don't want to be bottom guy. Maybe you were FO on the EMJ, or a CA at SkyReg so it's an easier course. Or you know the EMJ position will be reduced sooner and want to go on that reduction. Reductions are powerful because you can move to any position your seniority can hold, open or not.

5. CA/FO DH in J for business travel, RPs DH space available J. For personal travel all pilots/family members have 3 B1/J09 passes per year, same as most managers' priority, then unlimited C2/Y, same as other staff priority.
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Tealcowboy
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by Tealcowboy »

Couple of questions... (off topic)

With regards to bidding at AC - When a bid closes, are the awarded positions locked in stone? For instance, an FO 320 is awarded CA 320. Is there anything that could change this on the next or any subsequent bids? Are new awards provided some sort of "estimated start" date? How long are guys/gals typically waiting to train on new machines?

With the pending Transat acquisition and the merging of the pilot groups, has there been any speculation on the normalization of starting pay? Transat FOs make 68, 74, 80, 86 in their first 4 years vs 56, 61, 70, 80. Clearly there's a pretty major discrepancy... Pending re-negotiated wages across the board in your 2020 contract opener, how do the 2 salary scales get merged? There's 0% chance ALPA would sign off on any reduction for their pilot group and it seems equally unlikely that ACPA would allow AT pilots to merger with grandfathered wages...

Thoughts?
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altiplano
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by altiplano »

Tealcowboy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:41 am
Couple of questions... (off topic)

With regards to bidding at AC - When a bid closes, are the awarded positions locked in stone? For instance, an FO 320 is awarded CA 320. Is there anything that could change this on the next or any subsequent bids? Are new awards provided some sort of "estimated start" date? How long are guys/gals typically waiting to train on new machines?

With the pending Transat acquisition and the merging of the pilot groups, has there been any speculation on the normalization of starting pay? Transat FOs make 68, 74, 80, 86 in their first 4 years vs 56, 61, 70, 80. Clearly there's a pretty major discrepancy... Pending re-negotiated wages across the board in your 2020 contract opener, how do the 2 salary scales get merged? There's 0% chance ALPA would sign off on any reduction for their pilot group and it seems equally unlikely that ACPA would allow AT pilots to merger with grandfathered wages...

Thoughts?
Not locked in stone necessarily. If you haven't started training, you can bid back to your current seat or to something else if there's an open place for you.

Training plans are constantly changing based on some type of voodoo, you can get a quick course if there's ample staffing in your current seat and they have sim availability and need in your next seat. But there lots of factors and there is basically one person who makes the plan. Full training plans usually come out about 8 weeks after the bid closes. Sometimes guys wait up to a couple years to train even. If you're moving to a higher paid position you get a pay activation at a defined time, or as soon as someone junior to you checks out ahead of you. Ultimately, the company doesn't have to train you, just pay you.

Who knows on the TS merger.

I'm not sure on the rates you quote, I see AC rates are 60/66/75/84 for first 4 years. Plus a better pension payment, plus better benefits, etc.

Or are you talking annual ,000s pay? Because I think very few are only getting the monthly guarantee. And even then there's more things that get paid out on top of the guarantee.

ALPA doesn't have to sign off on anything. They will probably be gone as soon as the seniority integration is done. I hope it's a good fight, because ACPA has mostly been a let down. But particularly if AC pilots take their lumps in the SLI, they will vote their own as the certified bargaining agent for the new group for certain and they outnumber the TS guys 7:1. There will be some descent from AC Pilot votes, but gonna have to be a lot to see ALPA stay.

There might be grandfathering of their is truly a higher pay rate or guarantee. I would expect you might see it go to all pilots senior to the most junior GF pilot or something like that.

But really, the Transat Pilot agreement will be gone, maybe we can get a good thing or 2 out of it. But that's all Air Canada Pilot flying the day the deal goes through, and we're all going to be Air Canada Pilots one way or another on the Air Canada contract.

Still crossing fingers for the competition or regulator guys to pull the plug.
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landsky
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by landsky »

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:03 am
Tealcowboy wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:41 am
Couple of questions... (off topic)

With regards to bidding at AC - When a bid closes, are the awarded positions locked in stone? For instance, an FO 320 is awarded CA 320. Is there anything that could change this on the next or any subsequent bids? Are new awards provided some sort of "estimated start" date? How long are guys/gals typically waiting to train on new machines?

With the pending Transat acquisition and the merging of the pilot groups, has there been any speculation on the normalization of starting pay? Transat FOs make 68, 74, 80, 86 in their first 4 years vs 56, 61, 70, 80. Clearly there's a pretty major discrepancy... Pending re-negotiated wages across the board in your 2020 contract opener, how do the 2 salary scales get merged? There's 0% chance ALPA would sign off on any reduction for their pilot group and it seems equally unlikely that ACPA would allow AT pilots to merger with grandfathered wages...

Thoughts?
Not locked in stone necessarily. If you haven't started training, you can bid back to your current seat or to something else if there's an open place for you.

Training plans are constantly changing based on some type of voodoo, you can get a quick course if there's ample staffing in your current seat and they have sim availability and need in your next seat. But there lots of factors and there is basically one person who makes the plan. Full training plans usually come out about 8 weeks after the bid closes. Sometimes guys wait up to a couple years to train even. If you're moving to a higher paid position you get a pay activation at a defined time, or as soon as someone junior to you checks out ahead of you. Ultimately, the company doesn't have to train you, just pay you.

Who knows on the TS merger.

I'm not sure on the rates you quote, I see AC rates are 60/66/75/84 for first 4 years. Plus a better pension payment, plus better benefits, etc.

Or are you talking annual ,000s pay? Because I think very few are only getting the monthly guarantee. And even then there's more things that get paid out on top of the guarantee.

ALPA doesn't have to sign off on anything. They will probably be gone as soon as the seniority integration is done. I hope it's a good fight, because ACPA has mostly been a let down. But particularly if AC pilots take their lumps in the SLI, they will vote their own as the certified bargaining agent for the new group for certain and they outnumber the TS guys 7:1. There will be some descent from AC Pilot votes, but gonna have to be a lot to see ALPA stay.

There might be grandfathering of their is truly a higher pay rate or guarantee. I would expect you might see it go to all pilots senior to the most junior GF pilot or something like that.

But really, the Transat Pilot agreement will be gone, maybe we can get a good thing or 2 out of it. But that's all Air Canada Pilot flying the day the deal goes through, and we're all going to be Air Canada Pilots one way or another on the Air Canada contract.

Still crossing fingers for the competition or regulator guys to pull the plug.
Altiplano,

I believe Tealcowboy is referring to hourly rates that are outdated. The 2016 rates match up with the rates he is using: 56/61/70/80.

Our rate goes up by 2% every year on April 2nd (sigh) so here are the pay rates hourly and annually based on the 75 hour guarantee:

April 2, 2016:
Year 1: 56.60/hour - 50,940/year
Year 2: 61.88/hour - 55,692/year
Year 3: 70.52/hour - 63,468/year
Year 4: 78.97/hour - 71,043/year

April 2, 2017:
Year 1: 57.73/hour - 51,957/year
Year 2: 63.12/hour - 56,808/year
Year 3: 71.93/hour - 64,737/year
Year 4: 80.55/hour - 72,495/year

April 2, 2018:
Year 1: 58.88/hour - 52,992/year
Year 2: 64.38/hour - 57,942/year
Year 3: 73.37/hour - 66,033/year
Year 4: 82.16/hour - 73,944/year

April 2, 2019:
Year 1: 60.06/hour - 54,054/year
Year 2: 65.67/hour - 59,103/year
Year 3: 74.84/hour - 67,356/year
Year 4: 83.80/hour - 75,420/year

April 2, 2020:
Year 1: 61.26/hour - 55,135/year
Year 2: 66.98/hour - 60,285/year
Year 3: 76.34/hour - 68,703/year
Year 4: 85.48/hour - 76,929/year


April 2, 2021:
Year 1: 62.49/hour - 56,238/year
Year 2: 68.32/hour - 61,491/year
Year 3: 77.86/hour - 70,077/year
Year 4: 87.19/hour - 78,467/year
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FL320
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by FL320 »

Still crossing fingers for the competition or regulator guys to pull the plug.
It won’t happen so no need to cross your fingers. Things are moving more than you think behind the scene but you don’t hear anything because the key people have signed NDAs.
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altiplano
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Re: Position Vs Years of Service

Post by altiplano »

FL320 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:07 am
Still crossing fingers for the competition or regulator guys to pull the plug.
It won’t happen so no need to cross your fingers. Things are moving more than you think behind the scene but you don’t hear anything because the key people have signed NDAs.
I'm sure lots is going on. Nobody has 100% crystal ball though... otherwise TRZ would be trading at full offer price.

Maybe corona virus goes global and tanks the industry next week.

Maybe the voice of unhappy people about the slice this puts in AC's control on the Atlantic markets, particularly France, gets louder...

I don't know... it's 90%, sure, but not a done deal until the money moves.
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