Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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Duke Point
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Duke Point »

Here we go with Canadian certification and a public inquiry. Under the "waffling" and useless Trudeau regime, don't expect progress.

This thing won't fly this year.

Air Canada should keep a core of about 100 pilots/instructors trained and ready to go. They can sharpen their skills by doubling or tripling their Sim time, while the other 300 should be trained back on any equipment they can hold.

The optics of having a core of "heavily sim trained experts" bring the aircraft back would be beneficial to the public eye, though completely unnecessary in practice, since the damn thing is as fixed as it will ever be.

DP.

Further, IMO, the best idea would be to scrap the 737 from the fleet altogether, sell the fins and the sims. Lease/purchase used 767's/757's or 330's, and a handful of 320's to fill the void while options are considered. Air Canada are experts at keeping older equipment flying.
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altiplano
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by altiplano »

derateNO wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:18 pm Ok fair enough.

There are a few people in there that I've been impressed with personally. But overall we need a paradigm shift. Also the hierarchy structure is broken within ACPA.

I literally LAUGHED out loud when that guy got up telling CR how amazing he was and iconic.

Like what the @#$!.

The whole road show was a giant propaganda fest, exactly like I expected it to be. The intro from CR going over the slides of how they did so well above what they expected was super tone deaf. So what you're telling me is all the concessions and ten year contract wasn't REALLY needed since at the end of the day everything was all peachy.

How can you tell it's a contract year (even if it's just an opener)? ROADSHOW!
I puked a little in my mouth... Whoever that was had their tongue so far up Rovi's a$$, he might actually have been the one that gave Calin's speech.

I don't know how long you've been around, but the paradigm shift was supposed to be underway. Look at the YYZ reps replaced after 2017, N.E. reps ousted, 2 out of 3 N.E. reps are new pension guys, the other is middle seniority. Meanwhile out here in YVR & YUL we acclaim the old guard who will probably be found in management when they finally can't sit in the Union anymore. The MEC chair has put us in a spiral dive.

How many were in the room in YVR? How about the last LCM? What a joke. It's no wonder management doesn't respect us. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who goes to jack off management and doesn't show to the Union meeting too should be sanctioned... 50% union dues on all VO over 80.

Don't be so sure this isn't a full contract year. Both parties can agree to open it up. That benefits the company. I expect pennies above the current picture of what is cost neutral for some significant changes that will pay off big for the company.

Standing by for ATIS update from our Dear Leadership.
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Fanblade
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Fanblade »

altiplano wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:20 am
derateNO wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:18 pm Ok fair enough.

There are a few people in there that I've been impressed with personally. But overall we need a paradigm shift. Also the hierarchy structure is broken within ACPA.

I literally LAUGHED out loud when that guy got up telling CR how amazing he was and iconic.

Like what the @#$!.

The whole road show was a giant propaganda fest, exactly like I expected it to be. The intro from CR going over the slides of how they did so well above what they expected was super tone deaf. So what you're telling me is all the concessions and ten year contract wasn't REALLY needed since at the end of the day everything was all peachy.

How can you tell it's a contract year (even if it's just an opener)? ROADSHOW!
I puked a little in my mouth... Whoever that was had their tongue so far up Rovi's a$$, he might actually have been the one that gave Calin's speech.

I don't know how long you've been around, but the paradigm shift was supposed to be underway. Look at the YYZ reps replaced after 2017, N.E. reps ousted, 2 out of 3 N.E. reps are new pension guys, the other is middle seniority. Meanwhile out here in YVR & YUL we acclaim the old guard who will probably be found in management when they finally can't sit in the Union anymore. The MEC chair has put us in a spiral dive.

How many were in the room in YVR? How about the last LCM? What a joke. It's no wonder management doesn't respect us. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who goes to jack off management and doesn't show to the Union meeting too should be sanctioned... 50% union dues on all VO over 80.

Don't be so sure this isn't a full contract year. Both parties can agree to open it up. That benefits the company. I expect pennies above the current picture of what is cost neutral for some significant changes that will pay off big for the company.

Standing by for ATIS update from our Dear Leadership.
So all three of us were there. 8)

Yeah it was a bit over the top but he is entitled to his opinion.

But since you were both there? How did you take Calin’s denial the Airbus order article out of Quebec had no truth to it?

Between SEC rules, possible Unknown NDA’s, Boeing ongoing compensation negotiations, his body language if you recall it.

How did you take his words?

Something along the lines of “I can tell you for a fact the article is not accurate.

The wording allows for truth even if the article was 90% accurate.

It was the same as the when are you retiring question. He can’t answer it. In fact up until now he has been using a baseball metaphor to describe his time line. I’m just in the third inning kind of comment. This time none of that.

You have to be able to read between the lines sometimes. Thing is when doing so you are never 100% certain.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by ogc »

altiplano wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:20 am
Don't be so sure this isn't a full contract year. Both parties can agree to open it up. That benefits the company. I expect pennies above the current picture of what is cost neutral for some significant changes that will pay off big for the company.

Standing by for ATIS update from our Dear Leadership.
I would bet the company pushes for a full reopener.

This latest "market correction" is big leverage for them.
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altiplano
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by altiplano »

Take our guaranteed gains and wait until 2020 is the best move ACPA could make. We are at a disadvantage presently with regard to perceptions of current industry events and how AC management will seek to leverage that.

That said, they have billions in the bank, they're spending billions with the Transat acquisition, just spent billions on aeroplan, and generally they are spending like drunk sailors... that is until it's time to pull a few bucks out for the Pilots... then they're all tapped out.

In not falling for it, but I bet a case of beer ACPA will.
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ogc
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by ogc »

altiplano wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:01 am Take our guaranteed gains and wait until 2020 is the best move ACPA could make. We are at a disadvantage presently with regard to perceptions of current industry events and how AC management will seek to leverage that.

That said, they have billions in the bank, they're spending billions with the Transat acquisition, just spent billions on aeroplan, and generally they are spending like drunk sailors... that is until it's time to pull a few bucks out for the Pilots... then they're all tapped out.

In not falling for it, but I bet a case of beer ACPA will.
We are in agreement.
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derateNO
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by derateNO »

altiplano wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:01 am Take our guaranteed gains and wait until 2020 is the best move ACPA could make. We are at a disadvantage presently with regard to perceptions of current industry events and how AC management will seek to leverage that.

That said, they have billions in the bank, they're spending billions with the Transat acquisition, just spent billions on aeroplan, and generally they are spending like drunk sailors... that is until it's time to pull a few bucks out for the Pilots... then they're all tapped out.

In not falling for it, but I bet a case of beer ACPA will.
And then we'll somehow fall for the "well we can't give it to you because we can't afford to give it to the FAs too" and end up with nothing. Well Calin, were pilots. They're not. They can fight their me too clauses till their blue in the face for all I care.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

I literally LAUGHED out loud when that guy got up telling CR how amazing he was and iconic.
Well I guess you haven't been around AC long enough to know how dysfunctional an airline it was up until about 2015.

When AC was being run by RAM, a self-confessed airline geek, the corp lurched from crisis to crisis.

CAIL takeover, Tech stock meltdown 2000, 911, SARs, bankruptcy, 2008/9 world financial meltdown....

CR raised $1 billion in capital in 2010...do you remember what the world capital markets were like back then??

And it was never going to get better. Did CR and senior execs "f up" the 2012 negots...yep they sure did. And created a lot of ill will.

The corp was able to get rid of the pension liability and secure the pension plans, grow the company, grow the stock price 3800% (or something like that)....

Did CR do that alone? No, but he was the leader who did it. He stuck around (and has been around for 11 years now) and turned the TItanic around before it hit the iceberg. I applaud his work.

But no doubt, you could have done better??
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altiplano
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by altiplano »

It's not a shareholders' meeting. It's a meeting with his most expensive labour group who he sits ACROSS the table from and tries to suppress. You are falling right into it...

You are an adversary to him, he's not your friend, or your advocate, and you're applaud him? It's no wonder we do so poorly contract and contract.
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derateNO
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by derateNO »

Yeah I'll give credit where credit is due, he did turn the airline around. But he also fucked numerous labor groups in the process.

It very much is an us against them when it comes to anything labor related. I don't care if he makes us 5 billion dollars in profit in a year, unless he shows he is willing to spread the wealth he will always be the enemy.
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Duke Point
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Duke Point »

derateNO wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:45 pm Yeah I'll give credit where credit is due, he did turn the airline around. But he also fucked numerous labor groups in the process.

It very much is an us against them when it comes to anything labor related. I don't care if he makes us 5 billion dollars in profit in a year, unless he shows he is willing to spread the wealth he will always be the enemy.
Exactly.

The MEC's post RAM did nothing but facilitate the decimation of a fairly solid contract. Never a "snap back clause", always give. We have allowed ourselves to become massively fractured as a group, and undone almost all the work done by our comrades who got us to 2003 over the previous 65 odd years. How many Union officials have been rewarded with management positions for helping decimate the contract? That's a violation we should always remember......while we do nothing to stop it.

We have completely lost our way, and have no clue how to get anything without giving up something else. We have "zero sum bargaining" engrained in our DNA now. Every pilot at AC needs an education about what went on over the last 15 years so the constant bleeding will end. I am in fear every time the contract is opened. Fear of what will be forever lost ---- yet again.

Never forget that Calin said ……."go somewhere else if you don't like it here"...... That's distain for an employee group in a pure form. You and I are numbers, a means to an end, like an engine or fuel. Just like an engine or fuel, he will work hard to pay the --lowest possible dollar-- to get the job done.

We would be gone tomorrow if we weren't necessary, and he would --absolutely celebrate-- our departure. That's a fact, and we should all think about that for a moment.

AC pilots are stupid, and deserve what they get. Facilitators, partners, managers. Right. We are TOOLS used to generate value for the shareholder, nothing more, and I mean that literally.

DP.
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altiplano
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by altiplano »

Duke Point wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:41 pm
derateNO wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:45 pm Yeah I'll give credit where credit is due, he did turn the airline around. But he also fucked numerous labor groups in the process.

It very much is an us against them when it comes to anything labor related. I don't care if he makes us 5 billion dollars in profit in a year, unless he shows he is willing to spread the wealth he will always be the enemy.
Exactly.

The MEC's post RAM did nothing but facilitate the decimation of a fairly solid contract. Never a "snap back clause", always give. We have allowed ourselves to become massively fractured as a group, and undone almost all the work done by our comrades who got us to 2003 over the previous 65 odd years. How many Union officials have been rewarded with management positions for helping decimate the contract? That's a violation we should always remember......while we do nothing to stop it.

We have completely lost our way, and have no clue how to get anything without giving up something else. We have "zero sum bargaining" engrained in our DNA now. Every pilot at AC needs an education about what went on over the last 15 years so the constant bleeding will end. I am in fear every time the contract is opened. Fear of what will be forever lost ---- yet again.

Never forget that Calin said ……."go somewhere else if you don't like it here"...... That's distain for an employee group in a pure form. You and I are numbers, a means to an end, like an engine or fuel. Just like an engine or fuel, he will work hard to pay the --lowest possible dollar-- to get the job done.

We would be gone tomorrow if we weren't necessary, and he would --absolutely celebrate-- our departure. That's a fact, and we should all think about that for a moment.

AC pilots are stupid, and deserve what they get. Facilitators, partners, managers. Right. We are TOOLS used to generate value for the shareholder, nothing more, and I mean that literally.

DP.
Well said. We are only in his way.

Everyone joining the airline over the past few years would be well to get over the honeymoon quickly and learn the history, learn how much we've lost. With this man ALL we have done is lose. Culture change? New relationship? Just executive-speak for labour being happy with less.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

How many Union officials have been rewarded with management positions for helping decimate the contract? That's a violation we should always remember......while we do nothing to stop it.
I guess you'll be making a motion at the next LEC meeting to have the current CEO of APCA fired since he was a CALPA leader and then became a Sr VP at AC...before he became CEO of ACPA?
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derateNO
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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The CEO doesn't make decisions on our behalf. It's largely a figurehead position. Having someone who's worked in management is beneficial to us, just the same way management poaches union guys to work on their site.

If you can't beat em' join em'.

Also, it's fair to mention he was let go from his management position for being too soft towards the pilot group, and was not exactly in good standing with them.
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Duke Point
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Duke Point »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:12 pm
How many Union officials have been rewarded with management positions for helping decimate the contract? That's a violation we should always remember......while we do nothing to stop it.
I guess you'll be making a motion at the next LEC meeting to have the current CEO of APCA fired since he was a CALPA leader and then became a Sr VP at AC...before he became CEO of ACPA?
Nope, not me. I've done my share by voting no to every contract that our useless "colluding union" has sold us.

For the most part, guys like me have been silenced by the non-stop "capitulating will" of the majority and a Union that believes they are "partners in the airlines success". I'm outnumbered by sheep, and those colluding to neuter the pilot group permanently, and I know it

We will walk peacefully to the slaughter once again to the mantra, "its the best we can get".

I don't expect anything to change.

DP.
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Last edited by Duke Point on Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Duke Point »

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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Duke Point »

I'd like to add that Calin has been amazing for Air Canada. There is no doubt. He is a business icon, and deserves the fruits of his work. His job is to protect the shareholders interest, and he is doing an amazing job. The share value reflects that.

His job is to extract value from suppliers and workers. He's great at it. However, our Union has done little to protect the Membership from the onslaught, therein lies my beef, and only there.

DP.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

Fellow Pilots... This thread shows many signs of drifting off track. It is about Boeing and its relation to Air Canada pilots. Anyone can start a new thread to discuss Air Canada's history, management and the current controversies related to those issues. So, in order that this thread not be deleted or moved or restricted, may I ask you that you keep your comments here related strictly to the impact of the Boeing issues on Air Canada pilots? Many thanks.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

From Business Insider:

Catastrophic software errors doomed Boeing's airplanes and nearly destroyed its NASA spaceship. Experts blame the leadership's 'lack of engineering culture.'

Just 31 minutes after Boeing's CST-100 Starliner spaceship launched into space, Mission Control knew something was wrong. In the early stages of that crucial test flight on December 20, the Starliner's engines were supposed to fire automatically, setting the ship on a course toward the International Space Station — but they never did.

Mission controllers soon realized the problem: The Starliner's clock was 11 hours ahead. It was following the steps of a phase of the mission it had not yet reached, firing small thrusters to adjust its position. The uncrewed flight was meant to demonstrate that the spaceship Boeing designed to ferry NASA astronauts to and from the space station could successfully get there and dock, proving that the Starliner was ready to fly astronauts.

Instead, the spaceship wound up burning through about 25% of its fuel before engineers on the ground could get it back under their control. By then, there wasn't enough fuel to reach the space station — only to maneuver the ship into a stable orbit and prevent it from crashing to Earth.

As Boeing workers frantically checked hundreds of thousands of lines of the spaceship's code, they found a second error — one that would have caused the wrong thrusters to fire after two modules of the spacecraft separated. That could have led to a disastrous collision in space. Boeing and NASA didn't publicly reveal that second error for another seven weeks.

The doomed Starliner flight, of course, wasn't the first time in recent years that issues with Boeing software caused a crisis. Software flaws in the 737 Max airplanes were the reason two of those planes crashed — the Lion Air flight in October 2018 and the Ethiopian Airlines plane in March 2019 — killing 346 people.

"The question is now: Is this a software problem, or is it a deeper culture problem?" Bjorn Fehrm, an aeronautics industry analyst at the Leeham Company, told Business Insider. "Part of why they do these [flight] tests like they did is to check everything. And then they find bugs, and that's not extraordinary, but it comes in the backwater of this big debacle of [the 737] Max."

The two errors discovered in-flight "are likely only symptoms," Doug Loverro, a NASA associate administrator, said in a call with reporters. "They are not the real problem."

The bigger issue, NASA found, was that Boeing's testing team didn't catch several defects before the flight. "We want to understand what the culture is at Boeing that may have led to that," Loverro said. The Orlando Sentinel reported on Wednesday that a critical end-to-end software test ahead of the Starliner launch could have caught the two coding errors, but Boeing didn't conduct that test at all.
….
NASA announced on February 7 that it would investigate Boeing because of the flaws revealed in the Starliner test flight. That puts the company under intense scrutiny across sectors, with experts at many government agencies questioning whether Boeing's spaceship or its newest planes are safe enough for people.

Article continues…
https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... nes-2020-2
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Northboundguy »

There was a whistle blower a few months back discussing the fact Boeing laid off all the senior programmers in favour of outsourcing the work to India for cheaper. Sounds to me Boeing has the same cultural issue as the rest of North America .. Savings over Safety.
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