Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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Localizer
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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TheStig
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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Northboundguy wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:24 pm There was a whistle blower a few months back discussing the fact Boeing laid off all the senior programmers in favour of outsourcing the work to India for cheaper. Sounds to me Boeing has the same cultural issue as the rest of North America .. Savings over Safety.
The software functioned exactly as it was designed to.

-Auto pilot off + Flap/slats retracted + high AoA = MCAS activation.

-Garbage in = Garbage out.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by yycflyguy »

TheStig wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:56 pm
Northboundguy wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:24 pm There was a whistle blower a few months back discussing the fact Boeing laid off all the senior programmers in favour of outsourcing the work to India for cheaper. Sounds to me Boeing has the same cultural issue as the rest of North America .. Savings over Safety.
The software functioned exactly as it was designed to.

-Auto pilot off + Flap/slats retracted + high AoA = MCAS activation.

-Garbage in = Garbage out.
You're sorta forgetting the failure to implement a redundant system from bad AoA sensing. At least to have a couple lines of code that could look at the big picture (GS, A/C configuration etc) before activating an overly aggressive system that wasn't in any AOM all the while other warning systems were freaking out. But you are right, engineering garbage in - engineering garbage out.
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TheStig
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by TheStig »

yycflyguy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:57 pm
TheStig wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:56 pm
Northboundguy wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:24 pm There was a whistle blower a few months back discussing the fact Boeing laid off all the senior programmers in favour of outsourcing the work to India for cheaper. Sounds to me Boeing has the same cultural issue as the rest of North America .. Savings over Safety.
The software functioned exactly as it was designed to.

-Auto pilot off + Flap/slats retracted + high AoA = MCAS activation.

-Garbage in = Garbage out.
You're sorta forgetting the failure to implement a redundant system from bad AoA sensing. At least to have a couple lines of code that could look at the big picture (GS, A/C configuration etc) before activating an overly aggressive system that wasn't in any AOM all the while other warning systems were freaking out. But you are right, engineering garbage in - engineering garbage out.
You're right, my post was firmly tongue-in-cheek insofar as none of the problems you mentioned are the fault of the software which functioned exactly as it was designed to. The 'garbage in' engineering was in Seattle not India.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by yycflyguy »

TheStig wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:29 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:57 pm
TheStig wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:56 pm

The software functioned exactly as it was designed to.

-Auto pilot off + Flap/slats retracted + high AoA = MCAS activation.

-Garbage in = Garbage out.
You're sorta forgetting the failure to implement a redundant system from bad AoA sensing. At least to have a couple lines of code that could look at the big picture (GS, A/C configuration etc) before activating an overly aggressive system that wasn't in any AOM all the while other warning systems were freaking out. But you are right, engineering garbage in - engineering garbage out.
You're right, my post was firmly tongue-in-cheek insofar as none of the problems you mentioned are the fault of the software which functioned exactly as it was designed to. The 'garbage in' engineering was in Seattle not India.
Agreed!
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by derateNO »

TheStig wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:29 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:57 pm
TheStig wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:56 pm

The software functioned exactly as it was designed to.

-Auto pilot off + Flap/slats retracted + high AoA = MCAS activation.

-Garbage in = Garbage out.
You're sorta forgetting the failure to implement a redundant system from bad AoA sensing. At least to have a couple lines of code that could look at the big picture (GS, A/C configuration etc) before activating an overly aggressive system that wasn't in any AOM all the while other warning systems were freaking out. But you are right, engineering garbage in - engineering garbage out.
You're right, my post was firmly tongue-in-cheek insofar as none of the problems you mentioned are the fault of the software which functioned exactly as it was designed to. The 'garbage in' engineering was in Seattle not India.
truth.

everyone loves to point fingers at anyone from another country. that because they are Indian they are somehow worth less.

India has a ridiculous amount of very very smart people.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

From today's New York Times:

‘It’s More Than I Imagined’: Boeing’s New C.E.O. Confronts Its Challenges

In a candid interview, David Calhoun largely laid the blame for the company’s 737 Max crisis on his predecessor.

FLORISSANT, Mo. — In his eight weeks on the job, Boeing’s chief executive, David L. Calhoun, has come to one overriding conclusion: Things inside the aerospace giant were even worse than he had thought.

In a wide-ranging interview this week, Mr. Calhoun criticized his predecessor in blunt terms and said he was focused on transforming the internal culture of a company mired in crisis after two crashes killed 346 people.

To get Boeing back on track, Mr. Calhoun said, he is working to mend relationships with angry airlines, win back the confidence of international regulators and appease an anxious President Trump — all while moving as quickly as possible to get the grounded 737 Max back in the air.

“It’s more than I imagined it would be, honestly,” Mr. Calhoun said, describing the problems he is confronting. “And it speaks to the weaknesses of our leadership.”
......
When designing the Max, the company made a “fatal mistake” by assuming pilots would immediately counteract a failure of new software on the plane that played a role in the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines accidents. But he implied that the pilots from Indonesia and Ethiopia, “where pilots don’t have anywhere near the experience that they have here in the U.S.,” were part of the problem, too.

[Emphasis added]

Article continues…

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/busi ... e=Homepage
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

Today, from Reuters:

FAA administrator: Boeing 737 MAX certification flight could come within 'a few weeks'

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Federal Aviation Administration chief Stephen Dickson said on Thursday he thinks a certification test flight for the Boeing 737 MAX - a key milestone for the return of the grounded plane - could come soon.

"We're working though the last few software review and documentation issues and then I think within a matter of a few weeks we should be seeing a certification flight," Dickson said at a Washington aviation conference.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-7 ... 56303.html
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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Sure, anytime now..... I've heard that for the last 8 months :roll:
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by ayseven »

I think basically it comes down to Airbus vs Boeing, and nobody wants old ideas dressed up as new ones, which is what the Max seems to be - although I am very sure it is a nice airplane (how would I know?). Sales is about perceptions, though, and if you have to compromise so much just to get people to buy your stuff, you have to rethink everything about your business model. The old days of relying on easy money US government contracts for making killing machines seem over, and Boeing doesn't know how to do anything else for money.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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It really is too bad they got rid of all the 757 tooling. That would have been a great airframe to re engine.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

From today's Washington Post:

NASA shows it’s lost confidence in Boeing’s ability to police its own work on Starliner space capsule

The space agency will embed software experts alongside Boeing’s engineers to increase oversight

In the initial days and weeks after Boeing’s test flight of its new spacecraft went awry, the company and NASA went to great lengths to highlight the positives of the mission — how, as NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine said then, “a lot of things went right.”
But more than two months after the test mission was cut short by what Boeing and NASA now acknowledge were potentially catastrophic software errors, the space agency is being far more blunt about the poor performance of one of its most trusted contractors and dictating the steps Boeing must take to fix the serious problems that have been uncovered.

In a call with reporters Friday, NASA officials said an independent investigation of the marred test flight of Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft has produced 61 corrective actions and identified 49 gaps in Boeing’s testing procedures. A decision on whether Boeing will be allowed to proceed with flying astronauts or have to redo the test mission without humans on board may be months away, they said.

“We could have lost a spacecraft twice during this mission,” said Doug Loverro, NASA’s associate administrator for human exploration and mission operations. “So clearly this was a close call.”

Article continues…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... e-capsule/
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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Raymond Hall wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:05 pm
But more than two months after the test mission was cut short by what Boeing and NASA now acknowledge were potentially catastrophic software errors

Geee wiz, it's almost as if you don't really save money when you get rid of your in-house engineering team and outsource the work to 9$/hr Indian "software engineers".

It’s okay though. They appointed warmonger Nikki Haley to their BOD, didn’t she study aerospace and engineering ?

Oh wait.
She graduated from Clemson University[12] with a bachelor's degree in accounting.
.
There are currently 13 directors including a former White House chief of staff under President George H.W. Bush, a former U.S. trade representative under President George W. Bush, a former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under the younger Bush, and Caroline Kennedy, the U.S. ambassador to Japan under President Barack Obama.
Huh ... almost as if the entire BOD is made up of MIC, Big Pharma, Lobbyists and Ivy League bean counters. :bear:
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Last edited by daedalusx on Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by derateNO »

Given Covid-19, maybe now would be a great time to just remove these aircraft from the fleet for good. Retrain, slow hiring for 6 months... buy up planes from airlines that have gone under (320s) and expand the A220 order with the options.

The way things are looking in China these days who knows maybe lots of A330's up for sale for cheap when Dragon or Cathay kicks the bucket. Or HK Airlines.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

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derateNO wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:00 pm Given Covid-19, maybe now would be a great time to just remove these aircraft from the fleet for good. Retrain, slow hiring for 6 months... buy up planes from airlines that have gone under (320s) and expand the A220 order with the options.

The way things are looking in China these days who knows maybe lots of A330's up for sale for cheap when Dragon or Cathay kicks the bucket. Or HK Airlines.
Absolutely. Dump the MAXs. Would not make the money back over the remaining life of the aircraft at this point.
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

I think Calin is holding onto hope that he’ll be able to get a giant settlement from Boeing (or at least a few free 787’s) in exchange. If they decide to turf the fleet, that would reduce their leverage for such a move
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

From the Guardian:

Boeing's 'culture of concealment' led to fatal 737 Max crashes, report finds

Preliminary findings conclude Boeing ‘jeopardized the safety of the flying public’ in its attempts to get Max approved by regulators

A “culture of concealment”, cost cutting and “grossly insufficient” oversight led to two fatal crashes of Boeing 737 Max aircraft that claimed 346 lives, a congressional report has concluded.

The preliminary findings, issued by Democrats on the House transportation committee, conclude that Boeing “jeopardized the safety of the flying public” in its attempts to get the Max approved by regulators.

In a blistering 13-page report the committee found Boeing’s Max design “was marred by technical design failures, lack of transparency with both regulators and customers”.

According to the report, in 2011 the manufacturer was “under tremendous financial pressure” to compete with its rival Airbus’s A320neo aircraft. The speediest solution was to update its 737 fleet rather than develop a new plane.

As a result of those pressures, and in order to get the Max certified as quickly as possible, the manufacturer misled and withheld information from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and even “the very existence” of the MCAS anti-stall software system, blamed for the crashes, from pilots.

The report, based on internal documents, whistleblower testimony and public hearings, faults the FAA, too. The congressional committee cited conflicts of interest among Boeing employees who were authorized to perform certification work on behalf of the FAA and said Boeing’s influence over the FAA’s oversight had resulted in FAA management “rejecting safety concerns raised by the agency’s own technical experts at the behest of Boeing”.

The regulator’s oversight was “grossly insufficient” and it “failed in its duty” to both uncover critical problems and make sure Boeing fixed them, the committee found. “The combination of these problems doomed the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines flights,” the report concluded.

Article continues…

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... hes-report
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by Raymond Hall »

Here is the official report:

House Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure

The Boeing 737 Max Aircraft: Costs, consequences, and Lessons from its Design, Development, and Certification

Preliminary Investigative Findings

Prepared by the Democratic Staff of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure for Chair Peter A. DeFazio, Subcommittee on Aviation Chair Rick Larsen, and Members of the Committee March 2020

https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf
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Re: Boeing Update, for Air Canada Pilots — News and Views

Post by 98 Corolla »

AC installed dual HUDs in their MAXs since they've been grounded. It doesn't appear they are planning to dump them.
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