Coronavirus Numbers

[Rockie]

It’s not possible for me to be wrong Pelmet, because I have not formulated my own opinions on this since I have the exact same expertise you have...none whatsoever.

I do agree though, and have repeated the aggregate professional opinions stated en masse.

Once again they are:

1. Infection numbers must come down and stay down while reopening. Which means;
2. Extensive testing capability.
3. Extensive tracing capability.
4. Vulnerable people must stay isolated until the threat is sufficiently reduced.
5. Any reopening must be done in stages, done very carefully, and be constantly monitored for new spikes.


When we can do that we begin reopening, however the priority is guard against spikes and not overloading the health system. Reopening too fast or before we are ready is vigorously discouraged by health professionals. You know, the people who know what they’re talking about unlike you and me.

I know you have this pathological need to be right, or more importantly for me to be wrong. But once again for the really slow learners these aren’t my opinions, I just agree with them.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/herd-i ... -1.5545332

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/testing- ... -1.5547281

[pelmet]

Some of the responses to my herd immunity recommendation several weeks ago

viewtopic.php?p=1112104#p1112104

viewtopic.php?p=1112124#p1112124

viewtopic.php?p=1112143#p1112143

viewtopic.php?p=1112165#p1112165

Sorry Rockie, you didn't know what you are talking about, just like in the SFO near disaster thread and the TALPA thread.

Meanwhile...maybe I'll run for PM;)

[pelmet]

It’s not possible for me to be wrong Pelmet, because I have not formulated my own opinions on this since I have the exact same expertise you have...none whatsoever.

I do agree though, and have repeated the aggregate professional opinions stated en masse.

Once again they are:

1. Infection numbers must come down and stay down while reopening. Which means;
2. Extensive testing capability.
3. Extensive tracing capability.
4. Vulnerable people must stay isolated until the threat is sufficiently reduced.
5. Any reopening must be done in stages, done very carefully, and be constantly monitored for new spikes.


When we can do that we begin reopening, however the priority is guard against spikes and not overloading the health system. Reopening too fast or before we are ready is vigorously discouraged by health professionals. You know, the people who know what they’re talking about unlike you and me.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/herd-i ... -1.5545332

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/testing- ... -1.5547281

We don't have extensive testing capability. The economy is too important and it is being re-opened. Kids are going back to school to get immune. There will be some fatalities along with more car accidents. Thanks for the article from Dr. Tam. I guess you still have faith in her.

[boeingboy]

I believe that the truth lies between the two sides - both make good and bad points...

But you "experts" going on about all we need is heard immunity - need to get off the soapbox and let the experts figure that out. That doesn't work with everything, and there is no evidence that it will work with COVID-19. In fact - while there is no hard evidence yet either way - there are signs that that may not work. In addition....those that do recover are having permeant damage to some of their organs. Can you imagine what would happen if they were re-infected?

https://time.com/5810454/coronavirus-im ... infection/

Troubling headlines have been cropping up across Asia: Patients who were diagnosed with COVID-19 and seemingly recovered have been readmitted to the hospital after testing positive for the virus again. South Korean officials announced 111 such cases as of April 12.
Because SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, was only discovered a few months ago, scientists are still trying to answer many big questions related to the virus and the disease it causes.
The World Health Organization (WHO) is investigating the reports of patients testing positive after being released from treatment, but said it has no findings yet. “We are closely liaising with our clinical experts and working hard to get more information on those individual cases,” the agency told Reuters April 11.
With other coronavirus strains, experts say the antibodies that patients produce during infection give them immunity to the specific virus for months or even years, but researchers are still figuring out if and how that works with COVID-19.


The answer has huge implications for the spread of the disease, since researchers believe it will continue to crash across the world in waves, hitting the same country multiple times.

If it works out that heard immunity actually works against this - Great! we all have less to worry about.

Better to play safe than and wait for hard answers than to play god with peoples lives. If your wrong - god help you....

[pelmet]

I believe that the truth lies between the two sides - both make good and bad points...

But you "experts" going on about all we need is heard immunity - need to get off the soapbox and let the experts figure that out. That doesn't work with everything, and there is no evidence that it will work with COVID-19. In fact - while there is no hard evidence yet either way - there are signs that that may not work. In addition....those that do recover are having permeant damage to some of their organs. Can you imagine what would happen if they were re-infected?

https://time.com/5810454/coronavirus-im ... infection/

Troubling headlines have been cropping up across Asia: Patients who were diagnosed with COVID-19 and seemingly recovered have been readmitted to the hospital after testing positive for the virus again. South Korean officials announced 111 such cases as of April 12.
Because SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, was only discovered a few months ago, scientists are still trying to answer many big questions related to the virus and the disease it causes.
The World Health Organization (WHO) is investigating the reports of patients testing positive after being released from treatment, but said it has no findings yet. “We are closely liaising with our clinical experts and working hard to get more information on those individual cases,” the agency told Reuters April 11.
With other coronavirus strains, experts say the antibodies that patients produce during infection give them immunity to the specific virus for months or even years, but researchers are still figuring out if and how that works with COVID-19.


The answer has huge implications for the spread of the disease, since researchers believe it will continue to crash across the world in waves, hitting the same country multiple times.

If it works out that heard immunity actually works against this - Great! we all have less to worry about.

Better to play safe than and wait for hard answers than to play god with peoples lives. If your wrong - god help you....

Very minor detail...it is Herd immunity not Heard.

111 cases out of 11,000 confirmed and probably millions of unconfirmed cases. We can't destroy the economy just because some people who have already calculated that they will be OK financially, say to keep it shut down and be safe. The vast majority will become immune. The experts all have full time good paying jobs and don't want to be accused of having lost a life.

Lock down the vulnerable.

[Rockie]

Retirement homes don’t live in a complete bubble Pelmet, they have staff, they have deliveries. How do you protect the vulnerable while you let this infection spread without knowing who has it? How do you keep health services from being overwhelmed?

I’ll ask you the same question, are you going to choose who among your family dies? How do you know your parents don’t have some unknown underlying condition that will kill them? What about your Grandparents? Maybe your own immune system is weak from living your life in a basement and you just don’t know it.

Reopening is a risk even with testing and tracing and must be very carefully done. Without testing and tracing it’s just stupidity and most people with a brain are unwilling to be test subjects until all possible precautions have been taken.

Herd immunity advocates should for the sake of humanity just shut the hell up until they have a plan for reaching that goal without killing millions of people.

[mbav8r]

Retirement homes don’t live in a complete bubble Pelmet, they have staff, they have deliveries. How do you protect the vulnerable while you let this infection spread without knowing who has it? How do you keep health services from being overwhelmed?

I’ll ask you the same question, are you going to choose who among your family dies? How do you know your parents don’t have some unknown underlying condition that will kill them? What about your Grandparents? Maybe your own immune system is weak from living your life in a basement and you just don’t know it.

Reopening is a risk even with testing and tracing and must be very carefully done. Without testing and tracing it’s just stupidity and most people with a brain are unwilling to be test subjects until all possible precautions have been taken.

Herd immunity advocates should for the sake of humanity just shut the hell up until they have a plan for reaching that goal without killing millions of people.

I’ll go one further, those in favour of herd immunity should put their money where their mouth is, go seek out covid positive people and allow them to infect you, let us homebodies know how it works out for you!
There is still so much not known about this virus,

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... eSXnn5nt80

The patient’s chart appeared unremarkable at first glance. He took no medications and had no history of chronic conditions. He had been feeling fine, hanging out at home during the lockdown like the rest of the country, when suddenly, he had trouble talking and moving the right side of his body. Imaging showed a large blockage on the left side of his head.
Oxley gasped when he got to the patient’s age and covid-19 status: 44, positive.
The man was among several recent stroke patients in their 30s to 40s who were all infected with the coronavirus. The median age for that type of severe stroke is 74

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglat ... f0b26d34df

Why Is COVID-19 Coronavirus Causing Strokes In Young And Middle-Aged People

In a letter to be published online April 29 in the New England Journal of Medicine, researchers from Mount Sinai in New York City describe five COVID-19 patients who suffered large vessel strokes over a 2-week period, all under the age of 50, according to reporting by Medscape Medical News. Of the five patients the series, one patient died, one is still hospitalized, one was discharged home, while two are still in rehabilitation. What’s also striking is that the five patients either had mild or no symptoms of COVID-19. The study was led by Dr. Thomas Oxley, from the Department of Neurosurgery at Mount Sinai Health System

Who wants to be the guinea pig? Riplerock, Pelmet, you interested in being the test case?

[altiplano]

Lockdown was never about everyone not getting Coronavirus. It was about flattening the curve so everyone didn't get it at once...

Seems we did that. Now lock down the vulnerable, which they did a piss poor job doing as it represents a majority of the deaths, and let's get on with it.

And certainly stop ticketing people by themselves or with their kids in public spaces!

[2R]

50 milion dead in the Spanish Flu pandemic in 36 months . We are only at week ?
What was learned . Quarantine worked . Masks helped .
Parades not a good idea .
New Zealand seems to have some success
Vietnam has very few cases
Taiwan has a good result so far
Sweden's strategy might not work for much longer as their death rates as going up now.

Just remember it is not a World War until France officially surrenders , and their Prime Minister's recent suggestions are not quite a full on surrender , yet. Only a mere collaboration in helping the virus to kill and cripple .

[pelmet]

Retirement homes don’t live in a complete bubble Pelmet, they have staff, they have deliveries. How do you protect the vulnerable while you let this infection spread without knowing who has it? How do you keep health services from being overwhelmed?

A real iron ring. Double the pay(by government) of the people who work there and who have to stay there for a week(or perhaps two weeks) at a time. Workers may not be happy about it but the emergency legislation does not cover their pay if they quit(lives are at stake and they need a job so they will mostly stay and do what so many pilots did-a rotational job). No one else in or out except carefully controlled. Everything including the people are sprayed down with disinfectant when going in. The military is already helping out in several jurisdictions, so the precedent has been set. Sounds extreme but these are extreme times.

Health services almost everywhere in North America never became overwhelmed. Even NYC did not run out of ventilators. The target is continuing the flattened curve for a year or so hospitals while busy are not overloaded. That is why all vulnerable people are quarantined(including you). meanwhile herd immunity approaches.

I’ll ask you the same question, are you going to choose who among your family dies? How do you know your parents don’t have some unknown underlying condition that will kill them? What about your Grandparents? Maybe your own immune system is weak from living your life in a basement and you just don’t know it.

Like the increased number of people who will die once we get more cars on the roads(who would not have died if we stayed locked down)...we don't know who it will be. That is just the way it is. I accept I might be in a car crash, I accept that I might die from Covid-19.

Reopening is a risk even with testing and tracing and must be very carefully done. Without testing and tracing it’s just stupidity and most people with a brain are unwilling to be test subjects until all possible precautions have been taken.

Herd immunity advocates should for the sake of humanity just shut the hell up until they have a plan for reaching that goal without killing millions of people.

The economy is too important. Plenty of people are willing to go out and work. Perhaps those unwilling and not in a risk group can have minimal pay and reduced pensions to just barely get along while their money is transferred to those willing to work and need two weeks off for actual sickness.

This herd advocate has the Quebec government listening(glad I sent out ideas a few weeks ago). It is the best of all the bad options.

[pelmet]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/q ... spartandhp


Life goes on.

[altiplano]

I see what you're saying, but you can't lock someone down to work under threat of duress (lose job) in a retirement home.

But if people want to lock down with residents to work for premium, all the power to them, lots of people like to play the "front line worker martyr" card in all this so some might relish in it...

Testing, testing, testing, PPE, best practises, lock down and isolate residents from each other, staff education, and responsibility, there are ways to effectively isolate

[Rockie]

I accept that I might die from Covid-19.

Meaningless bullshit unless you say it just before you actually die from Covid 19. You also haven’t said if you accept your family dying from Covid 19. Have you asked them or are you going to choose who the lucky Pelmet family member is that steps up to die?

Hypocrite.

[pelmet]

I accept that I might die from Covid-19.

Meaningless bullshit unless you say it just before you actually die from Covid 19. You also haven’t said if you accept your family dying from Covid 19. Have you asked them or are you going to choose who the lucky Pelmet family member is that steps up to die?

Hypocrite.

I accept that anyone could die from this including my family members. But best efforts through continuing quarantine will be made. I have accepted flu deaths and car accident deaths for years.

That is reality. Life goes on.

Waiting for the next statement of meaningless bullshit.

Another politician(on the federal level) has been contacted with my herd immunity idea and how to go about it. He was receptive.

It is nice to have influence.

[pelmet]

I see what you're saying, but you can't lock someone down to work under threat of duress (lose job) in a retirement home.

But if people want to lock down with residents to work for premium, all the power to them, lots of people like to play the "front line worker martyr" card in all this so some might relish in it...

Testing, testing, testing, PPE, best practises, lock down and isolate residents from each other, staff education, and responsibility, there are ways to effectively isolate

People can quit with loss of all government funding. Others will take the work for great pay. Spray 'em down when they enter for their two week rotation. Emergency powers can be used to mandate work rules. This is an emergency.

Testing is prioritized to these workers as we do not have enough of them now. Test every day(or more).

People like Rockie need to actually think, instead of panic and insult.

[altiplano]

I disagree.

Violating people's rights is not justified.

If you want that ability to lock employees down in those positions, then you better write it into the employment contract for next time. But you can't tell me I can't go home or I'm fired if that's not my job.

If you can rotate in on a biweekly basis, you can rotate in your shifts daily. Isolation protocols are well established in locations around the world where people go home after their shift.

You mention not panicking. But your response of revoking people's rights and livelihoods, to suspending all Government funding, to ruining people, to support your "emergency" is exactly that.

[altiplano]

I'll add. These homes are meant to be specialized facilities to deal with health vulnerable people. That they didn't have existing protocols in place ahead of this - because everyone knew someday a pandemic flu would come - is a farce.

We routinely see Norwalk and Flu outbreaks in these homes, a dozen dead here, another dozen there, so there is nothing new happening here, it's just so many of them at once.

My grandmother died several years back, along with another 6 or 8 folks, after getting a Norwalk-like virus in a home we were paying $8000 or $9000/mo plus a bill a mile long for incidentals every month for... so I know how it goes... I know this particular home was relatively expensive, but at that price, or even less, for a room with a bathroom, that these places don't have the plan and measures already in place for something like this is almost negligence.

[Rockie]

I accept that anyone could die from this including my family members. I have accepted flu deaths and car accident deaths for years.

Holy shit Pelmet!

Between this and you actually believing you’re swaying government policy all by yourself...you need help buddy.

And you can add your creepy obsession with me to the list as well.

[mbav8r]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.4916255

OTTAWA -- The Mental Health Commission of Canada is offering free online mental health programs to essential workers struggling with the emotional and psychological strain of COVID-19.

[pelmet]

I disagree.

Violating people's rights is not justified.

If you want that ability to lock employees down in those positions, then you better write it into the employment contract for next time. But you can't tell me I can't go home or I'm fired if that's not my job.

If you can rotate in on a biweekly basis, you can rotate in your shifts daily. Isolation protocols are well established in locations around the world where people go home after their shift.

You mention not panicking. But your response of revoking people's rights and livelihoods, to suspending all Government funding, to ruining people, to support your "emergency" is exactly that.

I said people can quit if they want. After all, the rules of the job have changed. Just like the government changes the regs for pilots, it isn't written into your next contract...it is followed immediately upon implementation. Think of this idea for old folks homes as extended duty time. Don't like it...quit. Someone else will take your job at twice the pay.

Your right to go home every night is second to the lives in the old folks home. Emergency powers can be used to ensure compliance or the notwithstanding clause. As a worker at that place, you won't get much sympathy if you complain. Considering that we are locked down at home, get tickets in the park for releasing a dog of its leash, etc.....it seems like the general tone of freedoms/rights has been set.

Peoples lives/rights sometimes get revoked. One only need to look at the draft which has been done in Canada. Consider this as similar with lives being lost that can be saved by people drafted for longer times at work followed by longer times off.

Just talked to a politician today but he is a relative of an in-law, so easy to access. Very receptive and involved in this subject.

Your welcome Rockie, I do enjoy proving you ideas as wrong or foolish(and usually both).