Layoffs

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FL410AV8R
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Layoffs

Post by FL410AV8R »

Given the savage numbers of layoffs being proposed at WJ is there any discussion of layoffs at AC?? I've seen the reduced schedule announcements but not a peep about any workforce layoffs.
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Squid
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Squid »

Trying to avoid it for training but as things stretch on.... we seem to be about 5 days behind wj in anything. Ac is hoping for a quick recovery. I’m not as optimistic as cash can only burn so long...
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derateNO
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Re: Layoffs

Post by derateNO »

Hard to layoff a mixed fleet of pilots from the bottom up when current speculation is this will be nearing completion in a few months.

Layoffs need to last much longer than 3-6 months to be financially viable.
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North Shore
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Re: Layoffs

Post by North Shore »

Wouldn't it be easier to just cut everyone down to 50% (or less) blocks?
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Squid
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Squid »

There is always the concern of an airline invoking what's known as force majeure, where they would basically claim that the impact of the economic impact of this virus is basically an act of god
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whipline
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Re: Layoffs

Post by whipline »

Only way to do it would be by aircraft type. And I’m sure it’s being discussed.
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Inverted2
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Inverted2 »

Probably end up being X number of positions this base/type. No way in hell they will be retraining everyone. Takes a minimum of 2 months to do an initial course and no more sim training in other countries for now. Maybe one could bump into another base on the same type.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Curiousflyer »

Contractually, the only way they can apply layoffs is in reverse system seniority order. Not by base or aircraft type or whether or not you have a beard. Force Majeure is defined in the contract and it does not apply to layoffs.
Given these unprecedented times, management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want, leaving ACPA to grieve it at a later time.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Curiousflyer wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:10 am management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want
If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.
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digits_
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Re: Layoffs

Post by digits_ »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:12 am
Curiousflyer wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:10 am management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want
If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.
Walk around in a circle maybe. Where would they go? Where would any AC pilot go, even during good times?
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SkyKing
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Re: Layoffs

Post by SkyKing »

No pilot layoffs at Westjet, just reduced blocks. However, for many ACers on flat, EI may be the better deal. How sad.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:28 am
Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:12 am
Curiousflyer wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:10 am management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want
If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.
Walk around in a circle maybe. Where would they go? Where would any AC pilot go, even during good times?
I think that's a shitty comment digit.

These are serious times, people are losing jobs, and that's a serious answer. AC Pilots would walk, as in set the brake, and shut it down until the company got it's head straight and respected the contract regarding furlough. That isn't going to happen anyway, because the company knows that's the way it goes and it's wrong.

While the layoffs go in reverse seniority, they would certainly run a CMSC bid showing where the reductions are. And everyone getting reduced would be able to bid what their seniority could hold. They may be (certainly are) looking how to best target the position reductions to minimize bumping, training, and displacement. ie. target junior positions, RP, NB FO, etc.

It wouldn't surprise in the near term to see the RP position drastically reduced. Surplus FOs and CAs can cover any augment required and it's 90% a fairly junior position that wouldn't trigger much bumping.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Curiousflyer »

altiplano wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:21 am
While the layoffs go in reverse seniority, they would certainly run a CMSC bid showing where the reductions are. And everyone getting reduced would be able to bid what their seniority could hold. They may be (certainly are) looking how to best target the position reductions to minimize bumping, training, and displacement. ie. target junior positions, RP, NB FO, etc.

It wouldn't surprise in the near term to see the RP position drastically reduced. Surplus FOs and CAs can cover any augment required and it's 90% a fairly junior position that wouldn't trigger much bumping.
Yes that’s true about the bid reduction however given the spread on junior seniority it may not be necessary.
If they laid off 500 pilots in reverse seniority that would apply to the following bases/positions:
YUL 320 FO
YUL 737 FO
YUL Rouge 767
YUL Rouge 319
YUL A220
YUL 787 RP
YYZ 787 FO
YYZ 767 FO
YYZ Rouge 767
YYZ Rouge 319
YYZ A220 FO
YYZ EMJ FO
YYZ 777 RP
YYZ 787 RP
YYZ 330 RP
YWG 320 FO
YVR 777 FO
YVR 787 FO
YVR 320 FO
YVR 737 FO
YVR 777 RP
YVR 787 RP

That’s a massive spread of positions for the bottom 500 employees and no “retraining” costs required.
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iflyroads
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Re: Layoffs

Post by iflyroads »

What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

Interesting cross section, I'm not sure how that's all weighted, which positions would be heavier in that first 500 and would suit the staffing for any groundings they are contemplating, but I hope we don't come to it.

Don't panic, wait to see what comes.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

iflyroads wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 am What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.
If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Layoffs

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

altiplano wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:51 am
iflyroads wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 am What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.
If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.
But how can you justify laying anybody off when the company has been quite ok letting 400+ guys sit at home on their asses for the last year?

Still waiting to hear when our fearless leader will do like his American cohorts and forego his salary until this is over... Laying a single employee off, no matter what their role, should come as a last resort.

If we do get into a reduced block situation, what happens to those on flat pay? Since it’s a salary based position not solely dependent on the MBG.
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montado
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Re: Layoffs

Post by montado »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:48 am
altiplano wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:51 am
iflyroads wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 am What about the 400 or so 737 pilots ?

They would be allowed to bid off I'm sure or would the company still pay them for sitting at home and laying off 500 pilots?

If they bid off they will trigger training costs for sure.
If they don't reduce the 737 that's a good thing. You don't want all those guys coming back into other fleets if they can stay parked on Boeing's dime. That would trigger MORE reduction and require fewer total pilots.
But how can you justify laying anybody off when the company has been quite ok letting 400+ guys sit at home on their asses for the last year?

Still waiting to hear when our fearless leader will do like his American cohorts and forego his salary until this is over... Laying a single employee off, no matter what their role, should come as a last resort.

If we do get into a reduced block situation, what happens to those on flat pay? Since it’s a salary based position not solely dependent on the MBG.
I’m pretty certain the Max pilots sitting at home are being paid by Boeing, along with any Luther expenses attributed to the grounding. Of course things could change, but I anticipate Boeing will be paying for the grounding until the Max is back flying.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Flat pay should be flat. If it is X amount when you are busy it should still be X amount when you're not. That's a risk you take when you set up something like flat salary.
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

At AC we have a very large blocking window for a reason. Because the company has been through this before and wants flexibility. 60 hour block months will be an immediate 25-30% pay reduction. They don't even need to ask. Just go ahead and do it.

So pay cuts will happen at AC faster than just about everywhere. Next comes negotiations from there to stave off layoffs. This will have to be longer than 6 months to cause AC pilots to be layed off.

The problem I see is a future one. What if travel/ economy changes to the point that our fleet is no longer viable?

To that I obviously can not say. I can say however that the combination of 911/ SARS was also brutal. They happened within about 16 months. SARS was 6 months. The economy tanked but demand came surging right back after.
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