Layoffs

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TalkingPie
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Re: Layoffs

Post by TalkingPie »

As someone who has read posts on the FA social pages, it perplexes me the amount of negativity towards colleagues that is being displayed. There's definitely an atmosphere of "crabs in a bucket" where they want to make sure no one gets away without suffering. As is often the case, pilots are a target of their ire (especially the idled 737 guys/girls), as well as low-level managers who make little more money (for much more work) than they do. Crisis invariably brings out the worst in people, and we already know how many Canadians load themselves up with debt to the point that one missed paycheck causes panic.

Incidentally, AC is currently having difficulty finding FAs to work the remaining flights, due to many not wanting to expose themselves to the current conditions. Some are scared, some don't want to deal with the crappy blocks, some have childcare issues with kids at home, and others are legitimately feeling cold-like symptoms. This is before any layoff notices have even gone out.

As for AC pilots, I totally get that circumstances are a little different. Layoffs would potentially trigger retraining costs as pilots bump from one machine to another (if training facilities are even available), and at least up until now, there's been the worry of a future pilot shortage. It makes sense to me that management doesn't want to wade into the potential costs associated with layoffs until they have a clearer picture of how long this fiasco is going on for. Much like waiting to delay a flight departure until long after it's obvious that the inbound aircraft is an hour late, I think management is still holding out hope that the pandemic won't affect operations for more than a month or two. Once it does become apparent that business won't be returning to normal anytime soon, I think there'll be no choice but to expect pilot layoffs.
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RippleRock
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Re: Layoffs

Post by RippleRock »

Math is off...erased.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

shimmydampner
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Re: Layoffs

Post by shimmydampner »

RippleRock wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
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RippleRock
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Re: Layoffs

Post by RippleRock »

The shareholders all buggered off...….figuratively.
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RippleRock
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Re: Layoffs

Post by RippleRock »

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L39Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by L39Guy »

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm
RippleRock wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
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tsgas
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Re: Layoffs

Post by tsgas »

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:35 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm
RippleRock wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
Very well put. So many simple minded people don't realize that a win-win is the best outcome for everyone.
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RILEY
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Re: Layoffs

Post by RILEY »

tsgas wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:45 am
L39Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:35 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
Very well put. So many simple minded people don't realize that a win-win is the best outcome for everyone.
BINGO - collaboration not coercion everyone
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shimmydampner
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Re: Layoffs

Post by shimmydampner »

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:35 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm
RippleRock wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
Fair enough. But if you think that the intention is the benefit of employees, you're being naive. As an employee you may well benefit from it, but don't kid yourself; it wasn't meant for you. It just so happens that what's good for the shareholders in this scenario, is good for you too. Sorry to break it to you, but the corporation does not care about you.
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:35 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm
RippleRock wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
True, but only because shareholders need workers. Therefor workers share in the benefit.

The cash reserves belong to the shareholders. Make no mistake about it. The BOD has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of shareholders. Any use of money on idle employees must be justifiable.

Anything that looks like waste will be questioned and questioned hard by shareholders. This is why the only way to stave off furlough is to offer cost savings approximating what can be achieved through furlough.

It’s that simple. We either all take a partial hair cut, or a portion take a complete hair cut. If the situation gets bad enough eventually the group will no longer be able to offer savings greater than what can be saved through furlough. At that point layoffs start.

I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.

But to think employees have any entertainment to liquidity is ludicrous.
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:37 am
I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.
Using Force Majeure provisions, the lay-off of 50% of the combined AC/Rouge FA workforce creates meaningful immediate quantifiable cost savings with little or no cost to implement.

CUPE would be hard pressed to match those savings via job sharing at reduced monthly guarantees.

Pilot metric is dramatically different. Harder to implement (full scale). Significant associated costs. Hard to reverse. Possible to get a lot of pilots out from the bottom on short notice, however, cost savings lessened via average wage demographic in comparison to remaining pilot workforce.

I am certain that AC is at the table with an ask for ACPA. AC stance via bulletin is hopefully recovery of schedule (in increments) can start in May. That does not demonstrate an interest in dramatic disruptions in flight operations staffing. However, it is assured that the Corp is looking for some short term savings.
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:48 am
Fanblade wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:37 am
I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.
Using Force Majeure provisions, the lay-off of 50% of the combined AC/Rouge FA workforce creates meaningful immediate quantifiable cost savings with little or no cost to implement.

CUPE would be hard pressed to match those savings via job sharing at reduced monthly guarantees.

Pilot metric is dramatically different. Harder to implement (full scale). Significant associated costs. Hard to reverse. Possible to get a lot of pilots out from the bottom on short notice, however, cost savings lessened via average wage demographic in comparison to remaining pilot workforce.

I am certain that AC is at the table with an ask for ACPA. AC stance via bulletin is hopefully recovery of schedule (in increments) can start in May. That does not demonstrate an interest in dramatic disruptions in flight operations staffing. However, it is assured that the Corp is looking for some short term savings.
Absolutely. My unwilling comment was a poor choice of words. Unable is far far more likely.

I was mostly commenting on what looked like an employees sense of entertainment to AC cash reserves. My point was only that the below attitude is not anywhere in the realm of reality. This kind of thinking leads to a feeling of poor me when the pay cuts start to fly.

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?
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mbav8r
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Re: Layoffs

Post by mbav8r »

If already mentioned oh well, cash reserves are to stave off insolvency, which by default will protect shareholders and employees alike, live to fight another day so to speak. Cuts will delay the point in which this happens, simple really.
Many airlines have completely shut down, how they manage employees is all over the place.
Again, whichever method saves the most money and allows the planned continued operations is what will happen, regardless of our opinions.
This is just the first round, in my opinion, there will be another round based on predictions of how long the isolation and distancing will be needed. They’re talking months now, no longer referencing weeks. PM is talking about enforcing the stay at home recommendation, “Enough is Enough” was his message this morning, the feds will be talking to the premiers tonight about them taking action so the feds don’t need to.
Another factor, provinces have started shutting their borders to non residents and non essential travel, I’m currently readying myself for life on EI, hopefully not so long I’m insolvent myself.
Be well John Spartan!
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L39Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by L39Guy »

shimmydampner wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:14 am
L39Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:35 am
shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 pm

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.
The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.
Sorry to break it to you, but the corporation does not care about you.
Thanks for letting me know that. I feel more enlightened today than I did yesterday.
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iflyroads
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Re: Layoffs

Post by iflyroads »

Looks like the last 4 Gs at AC getting layoff calls
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bcflyer
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Re: Layoffs

Post by bcflyer »

Nothing from the union yet. Where did you hear that?
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montado
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Re: Layoffs

Post by montado »

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:33 pm
Nothing from the union yet. Where did you hear that?
You would think ACPA would have the decency to reach out to its members before layoffs sent out.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

Guys on the AC forum are saying calls are going out.

No emails from the Union yet is disappointing.

Tough to get timing right I guess though... you hate to find out from an email you're getting cut, at the same time you hate to see the rumours flying when nobody knows what's happening yet.

Disappointing they haven't offered early retirements yet to those that are willing to go. Maybe that will be part of it before they come for more.
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mbav8r
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Re: Layoffs

Post by mbav8r »

I imagine the last 4 ground schools are still in the initial training phase, so this is about not spending more on a group that will likely be furloughed shortly anyhow, if true.
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altiplano
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Re: Layoffs

Post by altiplano »

Contract says you get your IFR renewed before furlough. I hope they get their LOE and type rating at least.
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bcflyer
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Re: Layoffs

Post by bcflyer »

Nobody you has confirmed anything yet. Not saying it’s not happening but perhaps we wait till we hear something official?
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iflyroads
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Re: Layoffs

Post by iflyroads »

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:33 pm
Nothing from the union yet. Where did you hear that?

Can't get into too much details..


Bottom 162 is the final number (or close to it)

Staggered layoff dates of may 1st and June 1st
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Dry Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Dry Guy »

Probably a silly question but do you continue to accrue years of service for pay purposes during a layoff? I assume you do not.
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

iflyroads wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:45 pm

Can't get into too much details..


Bottom 162 is the final number (or close to it)

Staggered layoff dates of may 1st and June 1st
162 out of 4600?

Not meaning to sound insensitive but in these challenging and unpredictable times every action should be taken for a purpose.

A massive portion of the AC fleet is idled. What is the specific purpose of getting rid of the 3.5% lowest paid pilots at AC?
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bob99
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Re: Layoffs

Post by bob99 »

The MOA states up to 600 can be laid off. The 162 I believe are the guys still in initial training.
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