Layoffs

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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

BA looking forward lay-off 80% of staff. Pilot reductions pending.
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98 Corolla
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Re: Layoffs

Post by 98 Corolla »

iflyroads wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:34 am
tdp19 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:27 am
iflyroads wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:10 pm Buckle up. Hearing it could be a long bumpy ride for those furloughed at AC.

Upcoming bid will reflect this, and even more pain.


Sorry, I wish I had better news.
You seem to always have accurate info. Any other specifics?

Can't go into too much detail till after the bid comes out. But some of the 162 laid off were told to expect up to a year (spring 2021) if not more before a recall.

"Normal ops" expected to resume by next summer, and that's being optimistic.
Will the bid be delayed?
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Layoffs

Post by JoeyBarton »

No it won't, it has to happen unfortunately according to management...
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

The company can not lay-off and show vacant positions. They have to post a bid. Yeah it might get a slight reprieve for further negotiations. But it won’t get delayed much.

Go look at the last bid. Go right to the bottom. Subtract required pilots from active pilots. The vacancy/reductions column does it for you.

That number is the MINIMUM number of positions that need to be removed. Add a possible 600 to it.

Then visualize the amount of cascading implications.

There is good and bad in this.

The good news.

The actual layoffs could be 3x higher had AC been able to keep up with hiring.
AC retirements will take care of this within a couple of years even without recovery. Not every airline has that.
Recovery will happen.

Bad News.

Layoffs.

Career regression is about to see an all at once change I have never witnessed. Mostly as a result of the unprecedented massive bids we have seen in recent years. But the pay cuts for some will far exceed 50%.

Good/Bad news.

The bid will probably (my preference is hopefully) lead to further mitigation negotiations.

Good for those at the bottom
Will be Bad for my wallet. But like I said. I’m okay with that.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:09 am Go look at the last bid. Go right to the bottom. Subtract required pilots from active pilots. The vacancy/reductions column does it for you.

That number is the MINIMUM number of positions that need to be removed. Add a possible 600 to it.
So hypothetically it is -1500 where 900 is pilots that were never hired from the previous bid and then 600 from layoffs of active pilots?
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:18 am
Fanblade wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:09 am Go look at the last bid. Go right to the bottom. Subtract required pilots from active pilots. The vacancy/reductions column does it for you.

That number is the MINIMUM number of positions that need to be removed. Add a possible 600 to it.
So hypothetically it is -1500 where 900 is pilots that were never hired from the previous bid and then 600 from layoffs of active pilots?
Yes. Don’t forget ERIP will play a factor.

Hopefully we hold it to the 900 not yet hired.
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:23 am
rudder wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:18 am
Fanblade wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:09 am Go look at the last bid. Go right to the bottom. Subtract required pilots from active pilots. The vacancy/reductions column does it for you.

That number is the MINIMUM number of positions that need to be removed. Add a possible 600 to it.
So hypothetically it is -1500 where 900 is pilots that were never hired from the previous bid and then 600 from layoffs of active pilots?
Yes. Don’t forget ERIP will play a factor.

Hopefully we hold it to the 900 not yet hired.
For greater clarity, AC is not limited to less than 600 involuntary layoffs after Oct 01st?
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Fanblade
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:28 am
Fanblade wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:23 am
rudder wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:18 am

So hypothetically it is -1500 where 900 is pilots that were never hired from the previous bid and then 600 from layoffs of active pilots?
Yes. Don’t forget ERIP will play a factor.

Hopefully we hold it to the 900 not yet hired.
For greater clarity, AC is not limited to less than 600 involuntary layoffs after Oct 01st?
Correct.
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Inverted2
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Inverted2 »

Only 600 layoffs is a pretty damn good outcome. Other companies have laid off everyone and we laid off 1/2 our pilots (approx 675) at Jazz. I would have thought many more if AC has 4000+ pilots.
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ToolShed
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Re: Layoffs

Post by ToolShed »

Stop the fear mongering with the LAYOFFS ARE COMING!!!!!!!

AC is not the same as BA...not even close.
Different countries. Different Populations. Different Sizes. Different rules. Different Unions. Different Essential services.
Its so different you, can be a 747 FO at 250 hours at BA and a 777 FO at AC at 2000.

Now...go back to getting mad at Transat Date of Hire integration.
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FL-280
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Re: Layoffs

Post by FL-280 »

Inverted2 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:43 am Only 600 layoffs is a pretty damn good outcome. Other companies have laid off everyone and we laid off 1/2 our pilots (approx 675) at Jazz. I would have thought many more if AC has 4000+ pilots.

Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:48 am
Inverted2 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:43 am Only 600 layoffs is a pretty damn good outcome. Other companies have laid off everyone and we laid off 1/2 our pilots (approx 675) at Jazz. I would have thought many more if AC has 4000+ pilots.

Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
If the downturn in passenger demand prevails, and travel restrictions are extended, and the AC timetable remains subject to gross reduction, Jazz will likely be running a down bid. Jazz has no minimum employment guarantees, nor maximum layoff limitations that extend beyond July 01st. The parties are still examining the possible impact on staffing/layoffs of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy.

We should all hope for the best but be prepared for a challenge of greater consequence and duration than we would otherwise prefer. That is not fear mongering. That is contingency planning.
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47north
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Re: Layoffs

Post by 47north »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:48 am
Inverted2 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:43 am Only 600 layoffs is a pretty damn good outcome. Other companies have laid off everyone and we laid off 1/2 our pilots (approx 675) at Jazz. I would have thought many more if AC has 4000+ pilots.

Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
If a down-bid was run now, the layoffs at Jazz would be much worse.
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RippleRock
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Re: Layoffs

Post by RippleRock »

What's stopping ACPA from agreeing to another LOU that deviates from the last one? It's only a few pen strokes away.

Only 600 layoffs in a worsening climate may not be sufficient. Things changed drastically in a two week period between Calin's "we are well prepared to weather the storm" to laying off half the FA's.
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FL-280
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Re: Layoffs

Post by FL-280 »

47north wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:45 am
FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:48 am
Inverted2 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:43 am Only 600 layoffs is a pretty damn good outcome. Other companies have laid off everyone and we laid off 1/2 our pilots (approx 675) at Jazz. I would have thought many more if AC has 4000+ pilots.

Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
If a down-bid was run now, the layoffs at Jazz would be much worse.
That shows how little you know about a downbid
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47north
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Re: Layoffs

Post by 47north »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:10 pm
47north wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:45 am
FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:48 am


Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
If a down-bid was run now, the layoffs at Jazz would be much worse.
That shows how little you know about a downbid
Actually with respect to the Jazz contract, I can guarantee I know more than you and most others on here on how the bidding process works at Jazz.

But hey, you seems to be the expert of all things aviation related, so flame away.
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mbav8r
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Re: Layoffs

Post by mbav8r »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:10 pm
47north wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:45 am
FL-280 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:48 am


Yeah well the great and almighty ALPA gave up the requirement for a downbid too... but hey at least the ones not effected keep their left seat, left seat pay and oh ya dont touch my db kid! :rolleyes:
If a down-bid was run now, the layoffs at Jazz would be much worse.
That shows how little you know about a downbid
So, in your world when 1/2 the active pilots are laid off and the rest keep their status and pay for 3 months prior to a down bid that would’ve seen about 1/2 of the remaining pilots reduced to FO status and pay, is a bad outcome!
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TheStig
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Re: Layoffs

Post by TheStig »

The questions that no one can answer yet is what is the air travel market going to look like in 2 months, 6 months or a year from now. Given how quickly things fell to pieces in mid-March its pretty amazing how rapidly airlines adjusted their capacity for April. The global passenger air travel industry has effectively been shut down and airlines can no longer utilize economic indicators to forecast demand because they aren't applicable to this catastrophe (yet). The ACPA MOA does three things; provides the frame work for the ERIP, limits layoff to 600 pilots for 6 months and provides the airline with salary relief in exchange for the same period of time. After that, all bets are off. It's triage, while we're thinking about recovery time lines, we should be worried about survival.
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Squid
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Squid »

The big but here is the bottom in this economy and virus hasn’t come yet and the 6 mos MOA was drafted on old information. With new information and data changing by the day I think this is going to burn more cash and reserves from Ac weakening their position more for a potential easier recovery. Personally a 6 mos MOA was obviously good for the pilots but a poor decision by the company. The bottom in my opinion is still a month and a half away. I’ll bet we get back to the table sometime towards the end of April.
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tsgas
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Re: Layoffs

Post by tsgas »

Squid wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:55 am The big but here is the bottom in this economy and virus hasn’t come yet and the 6 mos MOA was drafted on old information. With new information and data changing by the day I think this is going to burn more cash and reserves from Ac weakening their position more for a potential easier recovery. Personally a 6 mos MOA was obviously good for the pilots but a poor decision by the company. The bottom in my opinion is still a month and a half away. I’ll bet we get back to the table sometime towards the end of April.
"Good for the pilots" short term but if the company is destroyed in the process , than everyone loses. We are sailing in uncharted waters and more adjustments will be necessary to save the ship.
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