Layoffs

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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L39Guy
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Re: Layoffs

Post by L39Guy »

Looks faster than what it really is...420 kts IAS/M 0.80. Need to be in a dive to get that.
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TT1900
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Re: Layoffs

Post by TT1900 »

L39Guy wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:26 pm
flashheart wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:40 am
TT1900 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:06 pm

Why do some seem to think the “old boys” owe it to others to retire? Most, if not all, have been furloughed during previous downturns, many more than once. They stuck it out and are now at the top of the pile. I’d say they’ve earned the right to stay if desired.
No one owes anything to anyone.

No one "earned it". Simply - they didn't die and passed a basic flight test.

What I think people were hoping:

- They had a good run and can leave before $shit really hits the fan and have a graceful departure

- Be remembered for the best of times in aviation and not what is inbound - flying in fear, wearing a F'n face mask, locked up in hotels, and watching co workers get booted to the street, downbids, commutes from hell due to lack of flights - while they munch up their salary

- Unless they were just awful with money and totally disconnected from reality, can live a financial stressless life while others stress out on how to pay rent, mortgages, fund their CWIPP pension plan which is based on earnings not years of service

- Don't get COVID-19 and deal with implications of that

The ones that stay and subsequently decide to deal with any of above, better not complain for a second. They had a pretty decent door offered to them
I took the package for all of the reasons mentioned above plus two others.

First, I remember all too well nearly getting laid off in the 90's and it was colleagues that either retired early or took LOA's that saved my bacon. My turn to return the favour to the next generation.

The second reason is related to the first; my retirement will mean one colleague will keep their job, their income, etc. when they would have otherwise been sent out onto the street likely with a mortgage, kids, etc.

When one does the math with our DB plan combined with income splitting, I would be working for $25 or $26 per credit hour. That makes no sense.

Good luck everyone. I hope that this mess gets sorted out soon and we can return to the "new" normal. My hope too is that sometime in the future when a downturn occurs - and there will be others - that those on this forum and elsewhere who wish that others would step aside do so themselves when they are in the same situation I am today.
A commendable choice. Nice jet.

My point wasn’t in favour one way or the other for ERIP, merely that there shouldn’t be any expectation that people will take it. When people chose to join a unionized, seniority based system they agreed to those principles; not that the top will quit because they have enough money and others need to build a pension. Sure, this downturn was unforeseen, but aren’t they all?

If people don’t like seniority based systems, where “earning” your position is time based, there are plenty of positions out there where employment and remuneration are skill/experience based.

Full disclosure, I personally don’t have any skin in the game with AC so maybe I don’t “get it”. I do have several dozen former co-workers and one family member in the 600 facing furlough. I hope this passes as quickly as possible and everyone finds their feet.
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vrefplus5
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Re: Layoffs

Post by vrefplus5 »

+ve news nevertheless is AC will be using the Emergency Wage Subsidy Program to rehire all laid off staff. I’d say that’s a win.
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mbav8r
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Re: Layoffs

Post by mbav8r »

https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rkers.html
Air Canada is re-hiring workers who were recently let go because of COVID-19. Here's the press release that was sent out this morning.
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

Great news for all affected at AC. Will be interesting to see which other air carriers jump on the same bandwagon.

Assuming the program ends on June 06 (there will be pressure to extend) the new layoff date will likely become June 07 for those affected.

Good luck to all.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Sharklasers »

vrefplus5 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:12 am +ve news nevertheless is AC will be using the Emergency Wage Subsidy Program to rehire all laid off staff. I’d say that’s a win.
“ Depending on various wage levels, we expect this will help some of you who are furloughed or on Off-Duty Status.”
They never said they will rehire all staff. It caps at 830 a week
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vrefplus5
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Re: Layoffs

Post by vrefplus5 »

They never said they will rehire all staff. It caps at 830 a week
I stand corrected. Thx
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Sharklasers
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Sharklasers »

Honestly who knows? The internal company email looks like some. But the media is saying all will be rehired.
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rudder
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Re: Layoffs

Post by rudder »

Sharklasers wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:40 am
vrefplus5 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:12 am +ve news nevertheless is AC will be using the Emergency Wage Subsidy Program to rehire all laid off staff. I’d say that’s a win.
“ Depending on various wage levels, we expect this will help some of you who are furloughed or on Off-Duty Status.”
They never said they will rehire all staff. It caps at 830 a week
Devil is in the details.

Is AC planning on paying 100% of regular wages and claiming 75% rebate (to the weekly limit), or planning on paying just 75% of regular wages (to the weekly limit) to previously furloughed staff?
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Old fella
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Old fella »

I would take it as some positive news for your airline. Hopefully the other carriers can do similar to help their employees. Again, nice to see good news of some sort under the current virus shit show.
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jjj
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Re: Layoffs

Post by jjj »

Dummies try to sue airlines all the time when they feel wronged in the hiring process.

Hardly does it ever work.

AC did nothing wrong to this guy when he didn't get his call. He isn't owed anything. Sad that when he plays it honest a lot of employers won't want to touch him. I get it - but not Acs fault.

Seems to me that your aviation parachute is AC when things turn around. Not a bad deal in the opinion of my generation.

It sucks - i get it - everyone is hurting these days in different ways.

In the meantime - don't make noise and don't become a pain in the ass before you get hired at AC. It doesn't take much for a next in line phone call to turn into NEVER.

This will end and you'll get your call eventually.

I'll likely be sweeping floors for cash to help make ends meet because even the government bailout money isn't enough for a guy with kids etc..

We're all in this together.

JJJ
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Goodman5
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Goodman5 »

jjj wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:35 am Dummies try to sue airlines all the time when they feel wronged in the hiring process.

Hardly does it ever work.

AC did nothing wrong to this guy when he didn't get his call. He isn't owed anything. Sad that when he plays it honest a lot of employers won't want to touch him. I get it - but not Acs fault.

Seems to me that your aviation parachute is AC when things turn around. Not a bad deal in the opinion of my generation.

It sucks - i get it - everyone is hurting these days in different ways.

In the meantime - don't make noise and don't become a pain in the ass before you get hired at AC. It doesn't take much for a next in line phone call to turn into NEVER.

This will end and you'll get your call eventually.

I'll likely be sweeping floors for cash to help make ends meet because even the government bailout money isn't enough for a guy with kids etc..

We're all in this together.

JJJ
“We’re all in this together”

Telling that to the guy who quit a perfectly good job after AC said ‘come on over!’ by scheduling them a groundschool and having them start online courses. Then kicking them to the street left standing, while we all sit in our chairs.

This happened to a select few, and you gotta feel for them.

You’re right, sueing isn’t the way to go, and maybe AC doesn’t owe them anything.... but it sure as hell isn’t right.
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Flight_level25
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Flight_level25 »

Being one of the “select few” I’m also kicking myself everyday for resigning from my previous position.

However I felt an obligation to do the right thing by providing notice of resignation. With all the online courses and exercises, uniform fittings, I was additionally confident I’d be safely in the door.

I think everyone deals with stress in different ways, it’s important to recognise everyone’s presented with a terrible scenario of some description right now. It’s just how hard will it be to recover. It’s not a bad idea to reach out to an aviation buddy and ask how they’re doing, particularly those with a family to support and a mortgage to pay.

I’m living in hope that once the dust settles, the public will start travelling again. Slowly the wheels will turn and the economy will move once more. A vaccine will be an absolute game changer.
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Last edited by Flight_level25 on Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Layoffs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Pretty sure there are legal ramifications to rescinded job offers, particularly when a signed agreement is in place and the employee has taken major steps to accept the new job, i.e quit their former employer, moved to a new base, etc. I think most of these are settled out of court, and typically a few months of salary are offered to tide over the employee.

Now is it smart to sue Air Canada if you wanted a job there? No. Very short term thinking.
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Squid
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Squid »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:12 am Pretty sure there are legal ramifications to rescinded job offers, particularly when a signed agreement is in place and the employee has taken major steps to accept the new job, i.e quit their former employer, moved to a new base, etc. I think most of these are settled out of court, and typically a few months of salary are offered to tide over the employee.

Now is it smart to sue Air Canada if you wanted a job there? No. Very short term thinking.
Bad advice in particular when you say pretty sure. In some past cases an employer has give 2 weeks pay out of the goodness of their heart but there is no obligation. This will be a 12-18 month recovery imho.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Layoffs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Squid wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:19 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:12 am Pretty sure there are legal ramifications to rescinded job offers, particularly when a signed agreement is in place and the employee has taken major steps to accept the new job, i.e quit their former employer, moved to a new base, etc. I think most of these are settled out of court, and typically a few months of salary are offered to tide over the employee.

Now is it smart to sue Air Canada if you wanted a job there? No. Very short term thinking.
Bad advice in particular when you say pretty sure. In some past cases an employer has give 2 weeks pay out of the goodness of their heart but there is no obligation. This will be a 12-18 month recovery imho.
Quick example of a recent case, different industry but similar situation. Prior to the steel tariffs, my neighbor who works in the steel industry was switching jobs; he accepted a new job with another employer in the steel industry. Trump applied the tariffs, both employers contracted work forces while he was transitioning. His offer was rescinded and he had no position to go back to.

He hired an employment lawyer, they sued and the employer was found to be responsible regardless of economic changes. His salary was significant as he was in an upper management position. After fees, he made away with his 6 figure salary, and I believe benefits through his former employer (how that works I don't know) while he spent the year with his family and took his time finding a better job.

My 'pretty sure' was I don't know exactly what the legal argument is, as it is not a common area many employees find themselves unless it is due to their fault (falsifying records, poor reference or background check) which are legal reasons for an employer to rescind an offer of employment. I think the fact that AC left a bunch of guys in the lurch certainly warrants a visit to an employment lawyer, if their choice is not to continue with Air Canada.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Layoffs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

https://duttonlaw.ca/rescinded-employment-offers/

'Employers who rescind a job offer usually must pay the employee whose job was rescinded damages akin to that of a regular employee who is terminated from his position.

If an employee has accepted a job offer, and suddenly the employer takes the job offer away, the employee may treat himself as being fired (i.e. as wrongfully dismissed). There is no distinction between an employee who has worked for a period of time and one who hasn’t. Therefore, the employer must provide the employee pay in lieu of reasonable notice as it would for any employee.

Employees who have a never worked a single day are usually entitled to about 3 months of pay in lieu of notice (i.e. 3 months wrongful dismissal damages). The courts recognize that it takes that amount of time, at minimum, to find a new job, and that is what the law seeks to remedy – lost wages between unemployment and re-employment.

The only time an employer may rescind a job offer and not have to pay the employee termination pay in lieu of reasonable notice is if:

the job offer had certain requirements which were not met (such as conditional reference checks);
the applicant lied in the job interview (or in his application);
the employer has just cause to fire the new employee.'


Quick search found this for all those guys left in the lurch.
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digits_
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Re: Layoffs

Post by digits_ »

Second post on this page already linked to that :wink:
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Layoffs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

digits_ wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:52 pm Second post on this page already linked to that :wink:
Oh I missed that in Sharks post. Got into this conversation late and got distracted by L39s jet.

Thanks Digits.
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Flight_Deck
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Re: Layoffs

Post by Flight_Deck »

My guess is that it is quite obvious that this will take some time to recover from. With that being said Air Canada was on the brink of hiring between 7-800 pilots in 2020 before this whole COVID bs transpired. I will be surprised if the people who quit their jobs to go to AC are not called for a ground school date by fall or winter. I also think they will run 2 to 3 courses for new hires by this time next year. This too shall pass and when it does, people are going to want to travel. The argument I keep hearing is that people won’t have the money to travel. Let’s be realistic, a good portion of the population spend money they don’t have and pay later. That is why and how VISA and MasterCard are such massive and successful organizations. If people always paid the full balance on their credit cards, these companies would go broke. I am trying to stay positive but also realistic at the same time. We will not be grounded for 2 years while they look for a vaccine for this. Take care everyone!
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