In need of a 9/11 history lesson

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KAG
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In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by KAG »

Hey all got a question for the long time porters here who were effected from 9/11. How fast and how deep did the layoffs happen at AC back then? I’m looking for context from those that rode out the last big crash, as I was not in the airline industry until it’s recovery.

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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by mbav8r »

At Jazz, there are no seniority numbers between June 2001 and Sept 2005, I drove a truck for three years until I got a crappy job flying a Navajo for a shitty operation with 5000 hours multi pic time under my belt.
It was sometime in 2006 that I applied for several jobs and received calls from most of them, before that no decent calls or offers.
As for AC, I can’t answer but I do know it was stagnant for a long time, I waited almost 9 years to hold left seat at Jazz and will more than likely lose it July 1, if I don’t end up laid off.
This one will be worse than post 9/11, we are looking at the next 18 months of social distancing which will likely mean no conventions, no sporting events, no concerts, no reason for mass travel.
Anyhow, wish I could be more optimistic but I’m too worried right now!
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by KAG »

I was flying a king air in 9/11 in the newly formed air canada regional hiring pool. I didn’t go to jazz till 2006. Now here I am a 6th year cpt at WestJet looking at a lay-off. I agree this downturn will make 9/11 look like a summer picnic. I’m just trying to anticipate the next move I should make as we have no concrete #s yet. The music is stoping, grab a seat and hold on tight. I’m asking this on the AC site as you guys have the history, it was dark days post RM. how long, how bad, how deep did it go.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by landshark »

How bad it’s going to be is yet to come; the country isn’t going to stay shutdown for 1.5 years.

I was flying with a skipper he other day who was hired in 2001 as an RP on the 340 and he was laid-off for 6 months.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by mbav8r »

landshark wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:44 pm How bad it’s going to be is yet to come; the country isn’t going to stay shutdown for 1.5 years.

I was flying with a skipper he other day who was hired in 2001 as an RP on the 340 and he was laid-off for 6 months.
The country may not be completely shutdown but pretty hard to go to a concert etc, with the physical distancing measures in place. The Manitoba 150 celebrations have all been cancelled until at the very earliest, next year, does that sound like a government who thinks the country will reopen in the next several months.
The experts are talking about the first wave being over sometime this summer, perhaps then easing some restrictions and bracing for the next wave that they’re “hoping” won’t be as bad.
Until there is a vaccine and most people are vaccinated this won’t end and people won’t be traveling, not t mention a lot depends on the rest of the world’s reaction as well. How many pilots do you think we need if it’s domestic only?
Did you ask the skipper who was laid off, how long until he started moving and the got his left seat?
Anyhow, I’m doing my part, staying home and hoping they get a vaccine sooner than later.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

too many duplicate posts.
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Last edited by CL-Skadoo! on Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by rudder »

Don’t forget that during the same time frame of 9-11 that AC and the AC regionals were also still digesting the consolidation of operations and staff from the AC/CDN merger. A merger going into a recession. Also, add a trip through CCAA.

I see the COVID crisis as akin to stacking 9-11 on top of 2008. You have governmental travel restrictions imposed upon a gross economic downturn. Any recovery will be based on consumer confidence and reinstated freedom to move. Both of those will be problematic for an extended period of time.

Large operators are going to have to seriously reevaluate business plans anticipating continued significant depressed operations in Q4. I don’t mean simply idling aircraft and crew (which is the Q2/Q3 plan). I mean coming up with a plan that carries in to 2021 that reduces cash burn through rightsizing operations.

This is uncharted territory. With mobility and personal proximity being the enemy of restricting viral spread, passenger airlines are extremely exposed to the negative consequences of the fight to block viral transmission. I anticipate some type of SAR’s passenger screening arrangements at the airports will be one of the required steps to start the recovery in passenger travel volume.

As for layoffs, it will be a lot of people for a long time. CCAA/CH11 is not out of the question for some carriers.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

I've been through so many of these now, I kinda just roll :roll: my eyes when I get told to get a seat and hold on. I think we need a new phrase. I've been told the music is stopping 4-5 times in my career thus far. The music doesn't stop, this is what aviation does; it rises and falls, rises and falls; it doesn't care where your seat is, it's the same game.

Keep your debt low, don't be house poor, have good contacts and a good reputation with a unique skillset with a willingness to be dynamic. Be adaptable to new situations, don't freak out everytime there is a hiccup. Don't hold on to things/lifestyles too tightly. Look after people when things are slow, they may just look after you when it's slow for you. The music doesn't actually stop, there is no magic seat. Just know how to dance during the slow spots in the song.

Oh yea, you're supposed to be dancing the whole time.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Old fella »

Got my CPL in 1973, few decades back for sure. I saw plenty believe me and during that time no jobs or very few around, I was idle for about 2-3 yrs until got class 3 instructors rating and first job was $75.00 per week and $3.00 per flying hour. Skimpy living for sure and many during that era who completed training to CPL + class 1 instrument rating dropped out of aviation never to return. Instructor jobs were hard to find- I got lucky. Anyway that was then and this is now. Aviation will come back at some point , it always does. I am not convinced economic activity will be on hold at current status for a yr to 18 months, a government can’t pump 100B every six months to keep it going. I bet by end/mid of June or slightly earlier there will be an easing of the restrictions and people will be ready no doubt.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Adam Oke »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 am I've been through so many of these now, I kinda just roll :roll: my eyes when I get told to get a seat and hold on. I think we need a new phrase. I've been told the music is stopping 4-5 times in my career thus far. The music doesn't stop, this is what aviation does; it rises and falls, rises and falls; it doesn't care where your seat is, it's the same game.

Keep your debt low, don't be house poor, have good contacts and a good reputation with a unique skillset with a willingness to be dynamic. Be adaptable to new situations, don't freak out everytime there is a hiccup. Don't hold on to things/lifestyles too tightly. Look after people when things are slow, they may just look after you when it's slow for you. The music doesn't actually stop, there is no magic seat. Just know how to dance during the slow spots in the song.

Oh yea, you're supposed to be dancing the whole time.
Some fantastic advice right here that deserves some emphasis.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Fanblade »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 am I've been through so many of these now, I kinda just roll :roll: my eyes when I get told to get a seat and hold on. I think we need a new phrase. I've been told the music is stopping 4-5 times in my career thus far. The music doesn't stop, this is what aviation does; it rises and falls, rises and falls; it doesn't care where your seat is, it's the same game.

Keep your debt low, don't be house poor, have good contacts and a good reputation with a unique skillset with a willingness to be dynamic. Be adaptable to new situations, don't freak out everytime there is a hiccup. Don't hold on to things/lifestyles too tightly. Look after people when things are slow, they may just look after you when it's slow for you. The music doesn't actually stop, there is no magic seat. Just know how to dance during the slow spots in the song.

Oh yea, you're supposed to be dancing the whole time.
Good advice.

I refer to the industry as having manic personality disorder. Way up or way down. Off it’s meds and :shock:

I will add a few.

- This industry is first hit and last to recover in a downturn. Every airline has its azz hanging out in every downturn because the industry is so capital intensive.

- Your employer will never be staffed correctly. Always chasing. Always too lean or too fat.

- Don’t plan financially on a full paid block month. It will not always be there.

- When your employer is behind the training curve and overtime is plenty? Don’t increase your lifestyle to match it. Put some away for the rainy day you can’t see. Just like that CB lurking behind your attenuated WX radar. It’s there. Keep enough gas in your back pocket to go all the way around.

- Don’t bid a junior position unless your willing to sit there for years. This includes bidding off base for a quick upgrade thinking you will be right back.

- Don’t buy airline stock unless you can afford to lose it. Pandemics, wars, terrorist attacks.

- Eventually we will get this industry back on it’s medication. This will be a long lost memory. But don’t forget the lessons you have learned. It will make life much more relaxed the next time the inevitable happens.

- Most importantly. Stop using the word interesting to describe the industry. It’s not interesting.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by yycflyguy »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:14 am
CL-Skadoo! wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 am I've been through so many of these now, I kinda just roll :roll: my eyes when I get told to get a seat and hold on. I think we need a new phrase. I've been told the music is stopping 4-5 times in my career thus far. The music doesn't stop, this is what aviation does; it rises and falls, rises and falls; it doesn't care where your seat is, it's the same game.

Keep your debt low, don't be house poor, have good contacts and a good reputation with a unique skillset with a willingness to be dynamic. Be adaptable to new situations, don't freak out everytime there is a hiccup. Don't hold on to things/lifestyles too tightly. Look after people when things are slow, they may just look after you when it's slow for you. The music doesn't actually stop, there is no magic seat. Just know how to dance during the slow spots in the song.

Oh yea, you're supposed to be dancing the whole time.
Good advice.

I refer to the industry as having manic personality disorder. Way up or way down. Off it’s meds and :shock:

I will add a few.

- This industry is first hit and last to recover in a downturn. Every airline has its azz hanging out in every downturn because the industry is so capital intensive.

- Your employer will never be staffed correctly. Always chasing. Always too lean or too fat.

- Don’t plan financially on a full paid block month. It will not always be there.

- When your employer is behind the training curve and overtime is plenty? Don’t increase your lifestyle to match it. Put some away for the rainy day you can’t see. Just like that CB lurking behind your attenuated WX radar. It’s there. Keep enough gas in your back pocket to go all the way around.

- Don’t bid a junior position unless your willing to sit there for years. This includes bidding off base for a quick upgrade thinking you will be right back.

- Don’t buy airline stock unless you can afford to lose it. Pandemics, wars, terrorist attacks.

- Eventually we will get this industry back on it’s medication. This will be a long lost memory. But don’t forget the lessons you have learned. It will make life much more relaxed the next time the inevitable happens.

- Most importantly. Stop using the word interesting to describe the industry. It’s not interesting.
Interesting :wink:
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by shimmydampner »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 am The music doesn't stop.
For the last year or so, (or more) there have been multiple pilot job ads per day on this site. Currently the most recent one is showing at 12 days ago. For all intents and purposes, the music has stopped. If you don't believe it, try an experiment: fire off a resume to an operator that you're ridiculously over-qualified for and see what bounces back. Two months ago that would be a slam dunk. I hypothesize that now you will hear crickets. Of course it will pick back up again, but it might be a while.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Desert Dawg »

Hi Kag

I was one of those that was laid off after 911. It actually didn't happen until about the summer of 2003. After 911 there was one course in 2002 at AC.

I think my course was off for 15 months from memory - not great. I did odd jobs while my girlfriend worked in a restaurant to pay the bills. We struggled but took comfort in the fact that it would be just a matter of time for recall. However, for me it was a choice to move on and I made the decision to leave for the ME.

The current situation has elements of both 911 and the financial crisis and unfortunately appears to be as bad as both combined. It's anyones guess how the airlines will manage going forward and how loads will return. I also think of airport restrictions, isolated cabins, security, delays, limits on layovers etc. I think it'll be a massive gong show for 6 months best case.

On the positive side, this WILL pass and the economies can and will likely bounce back strongly along with the stock markets. People tend to get very dramatic and overly negative from experiences like these in the past. I distinctly remember after 911, many people said they'll never fly again - and look what happened.

It's a very tough time for many and will provide numerous life lessons. That said, try to focus on all the good and be thankful.
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Last edited by Desert Dawg on Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by 291/2chev »

Hey everyone to answer the original question
I was hired at AC in Jan 2001 a class of 20 That was the only class hired in 2001 I believe there was one course in early 2002 another 20. Starting in either July or Aug. of 2003 I was furloughed total laid off was around 170-180 although originally 317 were announced and was called back in late 2005, I was fortunate to find work in Asia and flew a A340 for my time out of country I think the situation today with Covid 19 is far worse than the problems we had in the industry after 9-11 .
However the sun will come up tomorrow and life goes on
Take this time to enjoy the little things
And stay safe
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by GATRKGA »

Some excellent advice in here.
Desert Dawg wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:47 am Hi Kag

I was one of those that was laid off after 911. It actually didn't happen until about the summer of 2003. After 911 there was one course in 2002 at AC.

I think my course was off for 15 months from memory - not great. I did odd jobs while my girlfriend worked in a restaurant to pay the bills. We struggled but took comfort in the fact that it would be just a matter of time for recall. However, for me it was a choice to move on and I made the decision to leave for the ME.

The current situation has elements of both 911 and the financial crisis and unfortunately appears to be as bad as both combined. It's anyones guess how the airlines will manage going forward and how loads will return. I also think of airport restrictions, isolated cabins, security, delays, limits on layovers etc. I think it'll be a massive gong show for 6 months best case.

On the positive side, this WILL pass and the economies can and will likely bounce back strongly along with the stock markets. People tend to get very dramatic and overly negative from experiences like these in the past. I distinctly remember after 911, many people said they'll never fly again - and look what happened.

It's a very tough time for many and will provide numerous life lessons. That said, try to focus on all the good and be thankful.
Desert, how did it work out for you in the ME? How long did you last? And what made you come home *unless you're still there?

Thanks
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Desert Dawg »

"Desert, how did it work out for you in the ME? How long did you last? And what made you come home *unless you're still there?

Thanks"


Still here in the ME - 16+ years now at the largest outfit flying the double decker.
Been an amazing experience with no real regrets outside giving up the DB pension.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by GATRKGA »

Desert Dawg wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:44 am "Desert, how did it work out for you in the ME? How long did you last? And what made you come home *unless you're still there?

Thanks"


Still here in the ME - 16+ years now at the largest outfit flying the double decker.
Been an amazing experience with no real regrets outside giving up the DB pension.
Thanks for the response.

I think AC is on a DC pension these days.

What is it about the pension you regret? Seemingly the heaps of cash made at EK has given you control of your retirement right? As opposed to bestowing it to a money matching fund or some other sort? Plus you have end of service payout as well right?

Would really appreciate your two cents on why you decided to stay as opposed to come home, even with the pension regret considered.

Thanks.
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by RippleRock »

For the record, there were two classes of 20 in 2002, one in March I believe, and the other in June. Classes 02-01 and 02-02
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Re: In need of a 9/11 history lesson

Post by Desert Dawg »

Ah 2 classes in '02. I really thought there was just the one. Thanks

DB pensions are perfect for pilots who are generally horrible investors. I understand it's now a DC and the days of DB are all long gone but the defined benefit pension you just can't beat. You don't want most pilots "in control" of their retirements which is why the DB was so great. You could buy as much Nortel, Blackberry stock etc. and you'd still be just fine. Look at the markets now!? Finally, pilots also tend to take advice from other pilots. Not good generally. Convinced yet? :)

Unfortunately, being a good colleague, I've made too many of those same mistakes over the years as well, so yes, I certainly wish I still had a DB pension. As far as AC, its great company in many ways and has done a great job of improving the product over the years. It is however, full of entitled union workers of which I don't miss at all. I could go on and on but nuff said. No regrets at all leaving as it's been an amazing experience all around and the 380 is by far the best AC I've flown. Anyway, good luck and I hope things turn around soon for all of us.
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