Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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alkaseltzer
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by alkaseltzer »

brooks wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:09 am History has a funny way of repeating itself. Instead of buying an airline started from CP Rail you are buying another Montreal based bloated whale. Between Bombardier, and SNC Lavalin, and AT once again Canadian Taxpayers money is being dumped into failing Liberal strongholds. Consider yourself in a safe and secure position at AC.
I think this acquisition is different from the past. AC has stated that it wants to maintain AT as a separate identity. (We don’t need another Westjet forming now, do we?)

This is not a mish mash of two companies, and would be a big mistake to do so. This is like Disney buying Pixar and Marvel, they’re distinct in they’re own ways, but retain its branding and largely the mode of operation. To collapse the AT brand would be begging for a new competitor to start up in Quebec. I don’t think this would be the scenario.

With an accountant at the helm, and given his retail experience, I’m curious as to how he plans to manage these brands as they don’t make the balance sheet per se.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Old fella »

Question? What happens to AC Rouge, will it(Rouge) now be the domestic arm within AC , so called AC Mainline be the long haul international market arm and AT be the LCC setup for Air Canada going forward. Just asking.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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Old fella wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:57 am Question? What happens to AC Rouge, will it(Rouge) now be the domestic arm within AC , so called AC Mainline be the long haul international market arm and AT be the LCC setup for Air Canada going forward. Just asking.
Rouge = Swoop
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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This is just my opinion, nothing to support it, but I think you'll see the current Rouge Airbus 320/321 fleet migrate to AT and eventually Rouge will cease to exist.

We will be left with Air Canada, Air Transat, and Air Canada Cargo.

Time will tell .. but that's my gut feeling.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by rudder »

Localizer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:53 am This is just my opinion, nothing to support it, but I think you'll see the current Rouge Airbus 320/321 fleet migrate to AT and eventually Rouge will cease to exist.

We will be left with Air Canada, Air Transat, and Air Canada Cargo.

Time will tell .. but that's my gut feeling.

Assuming that ACPA gives AC unfettered ability to do whatever it wants (recall that I suggested that management was strategizing for up to 5 operating certificates), I believe that AC will designate TS as the leisure carrier (sun destinations and secondary seasonal TATL destinations). AC has already been given permission to establish FreightCo. Mainline/Express will cover premium (J class inventory) North America city pairs.

Entirely likely that AC will want to maintain Rouge brand and use it for North America low yield city pairs or simply to offer a cheaper stripped down product to compete directly with Swoop and Flair (and any other ULCC entrant). NB fleet only.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by altiplano »

Wants to maintain Air Transat as a seperate brand? Or Transat AT as s seperate brand?

They are different... as it is Transat AT has sold packages that include seats on pretty much every airline in this country and half of the ACMI charter operators out of Eastern Europe. That's what AC is buying, not "Air Transat."

Transat AT will be the face of vacation package sales, primarily in Quebec, but they will maintain a presence in other markets. They will whipsaw the pilot groups a bit, we'll make some concessions, and then it will all get rolled together somehow anyway in 2025 or so and we will wonder what those concessions were for as any benefit either group derived will be gone.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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Wants to maintain Air Transat as a seperate brand? Or Transat AT as s seperate brand?

They are different... as it is Transat AT has sold packages that include seats on pretty much every airline in this country and half of the ACMI charter operators out of Eastern Europe. That's what AC is buying, not "Air Transat."

Transat AT will be the face of vacation package sales, primarily in Quebec, but they will maintain a presence in other markets. They will whipsaw the pilot groups a bit, we'll make some concessions, and then it will all get rolled together somehow anyway in 2025 or so and we will wonder what those concessions were for as any benefit either group derived will be gone.
Respectfully that's not what's being signalled .. I believe the intentions are to utilize the "Air Transat" brand.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

rudder wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:46 am
Localizer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:53 am This is just my opinion, nothing to support it, but I think you'll see the current Rouge Airbus 320/321 fleet migrate to AT and eventually Rouge will cease to exist.

We will be left with Air Canada, Air Transat, and Air Canada Cargo.

Time will tell .. but that's my gut feeling.

Assuming that ACPA gives AC unfettered ability to do whatever it wants (recall that I suggested that management was strategizing for up to 5 operating certificates), I believe that AC will designate TS as the leisure carrier (sun destinations and secondary seasonal TATL destinations). AC has already been given permission to establish FreightCo. Mainline/Express will cover premium (J class inventory) North America city pairs.

Entirely likely that AC will want to maintain Rouge brand and use it for North America low yield city pairs or simply to offer a cheaper stripped down product to compete directly with Swoop and Flair (and any other ULCC entrant). NB fleet only.
Agree with Rudder.

Rouge is an excuse for another division and will be sold as a "job creator" to "capture" flying that is apparently up for grabs and there will be a "limited" opportunity to do this.

ACPA will negotiate it and sell it to the pilot group. Will pass at 59% and boom, more lower paid pilot positions in Canada.

The US pilots that pay attention will roll their eyes and Canadian pilots that look down south will be told they are "not comparables"
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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Let us have a green card already. Canada is a shit hole run by an asshole.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by altiplano »

Localizer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:26 am
Wants to maintain Air Transat as a seperate brand? Or Transat AT as s seperate brand?

They are different... as it is Transat AT has sold packages that include seats on pretty much every airline in this country and half of the ACMI charter operators out of Eastern Europe. That's what AC is buying, not "Air Transat."

Transat AT will be the face of vacation package sales, primarily in Quebec, but they will maintain a presence in other markets. They will whipsaw the pilot groups a bit, we'll make some concessions, and then it will all get rolled together somehow anyway in 2025 or so and we will wonder what those concessions were for as any benefit either group derived will be gone.
Respectfully that's not what's being signalled .. I believe the intentions are to utilize the "Air Transat" brand.
What signals are those. From whom? Do you have a direct quote?

If you actually go through transat.ca you will see the "Air" Transat is almost just a footnote, a single business unit in the larger operation. Itself, Air Transat, is not the brand or the business, Transat is the business.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by alkaseltzer »

Localizer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:26 am
Wants to maintain Air Transat as a seperate brand? Or Transat AT as s seperate brand?

They are different... as it is Transat AT has sold packages that include seats on pretty much every airline in this country and half of the ACMI charter operators out of Eastern Europe. That's what AC is buying, not "Air Transat."

Transat AT will be the face of vacation package sales, primarily in Quebec, but they will maintain a presence in other markets. They will whipsaw the pilot groups a bit, we'll make some concessions, and then it will all get rolled together somehow anyway in 2025 or so and we will wonder what those concessions were for as any benefit either group derived will be gone.
Respectfully that's not what's being signalled .. I believe the intentions are to utilize the "Air Transat" brand.
I agree with Localizer.

Air Transat isn't advertising at Yonge/Dundas Square just for shits and giggles. Have you seen the giant billboard?
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by altiplano »

I'm just saying, TRANSAT is the brand, TRANSAT is what AC is buying. AIR you can put on our take off, and they do.

Transat, Transat Vacations, Transat Travel, sometimes they don't even use "Transat" as in Marlin Travel, etc.

Air Transat isn't the brand.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by Localizer »

What signals are those. From whom? Do you have a direct quote?

If you actually go through transat.ca you will see the "Air" Transat is almost just a footnote, a single business unit in the larger operation. Itself, Air Transat, is not the brand or the business, Transat is the business.
I gauge the corporate comments from both sides of the table, AC seems to have a plan for AT or TRZ, whichever you prefer.

As for Air Transat not being the “brand”, I highly disagree with that. Air Transat is the public face of Transat, walk into a travel agent business and it’s branded as Air Transat, the planes are usually the public face of any news article. Air Transat and Transat are synonymous to the general public.

We have no control as to how this is going to play out so try not to get heated over it.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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Altiplano, what is your point?? Air Canada is buying the whole thing. What is the point you’re trying to argue?

Air Transat is A brand, maybe not THE brand .. what a silly argument to make.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by altiplano »

Localizer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:13 pm
What signals are those. From whom? Do you have a direct quote?

If you actually go through transat.ca you will see the "Air" Transat is almost just a footnote, a single business unit in the larger operation. Itself, Air Transat, is not the brand or the business, Transat is the business.
I gauge the corporate comments from both sides of the table, AC seems to have a plan for AT or TRZ, whichever you prefer.

As for Air Transat not being the “brand”, I highly disagree with that. Air Transat is the public face of Transat, walk into a travel agent business and it’s branded as Air Transat, the planes are usually the public face of any news article. Air Transat and Transat are synonymous to the general public.

We have no control as to how this is going to play out so try not to get heated over it.
Show me which Transat retail centre I walk into is branded "Air Transat":

https://www.transat.com/en-CA/contact-u ... cy#agences
Screenshot_20210102-211348.png
Screenshot_20210102-211348.png (515.99 KiB) Viewed 5549 times
And which corporate comments are you referring to?

Air Canada didn't buy an airline, they bought a travel seller.

I'm not saying definitively that it won't go the way you seem to think, but there is no evidence that is the case. The fact is we don't know.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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Image

Yonge and Dundas ... need I say more?
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by ayseven »

They buy Air Transat. It comes with a bunch of travel company connections. It also comes with a bunch of airplanes and staff. Once AC has it, they can do with it what they like; if they see that integrating everyone into one company is too much trouble (in other words, finding a way not to pay people too much), they will leave them all there where they are, decimate the business, and lay everybody off, keeping the travel business for themselves, but no airplanes etc., then moving more AC business to Montreal to keep the proletariats happy. I see them as killing the competition, not buying an airline they can use. But that is just my opinion, obviously. Big business has more to do with smoke and mirrors to save tax, than anything else, half the time, but I guarantee that the less people they take on, the happier they will be, especially right now.

As a traveller, I wonder if they will continue to go into Gatwick. I think the only other Canadian airline going there is WJ, is it not?
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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There is no comparison between the product offered by TS and Rouge. None.

TS are experts in leisure travel and within that segment offer a premium product. Rouge was late to the game and does not offer an equivalent product.

Much more likely that AC will want to preserve and promote TS in that market segment. TS TATL routes that overlapped AC mainline will revert to mainline. Rouge routes that overlapped TS routes will eventually revert to TS.

Rouge (if it survives) will be the LCC/ULCC competitive product. May also be deployed on domestic city pairs at reduced frequency to replace Express non J-class inventory (as was the case pre-COVID) at a lower CASM.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

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rudder wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:08 pm There is no comparison between the product offered by TS and Rouge. None.

TS are experts in leisure travel and within that segment offer a premium product. Rouge was late to the game and does not offer an equivalent product.

Much more likely that AC will want to preserve and promote TS in that market segment. TS TATL routes that overlapped AC mainline will revert to mainline. Rouge routes that overlapped TS routes will eventually revert to TS.

Rouge (if it survives) will be the LCC/ULCC competitive product. May also be deployed on domestic city pairs at reduced frequency to replace Express non J-class inventory (as was the case pre-COVID) at a lower CASM.
So what you are indicating aka Rouge ‘tis possible such routes could be YYZ/YUL to YDF, YQX, YQY, YYG, YQM etc on reduced schedules as there is a perception of less demand.
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Re: Air Canada Second Trip to C.C.A.A.?

Post by TheStig »

rudder wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:08 pm There is no comparison between the product offered by TS and Rouge. None.

TS are experts in leisure travel and within that segment offer a premium product. Rouge was late to the game and does not offer an equivalent product.


I usually agree with your comments, but not the first two sentences. Both carriers provide leisure air travel, that's pretty comparable. Rouge has evolved significantly since it's launch; the A319's were to provide competition to stop WJ's unimpeded growth and the B767's with Transat over the Atlantic. Both were successful, WJ has completely changed their business model and AC is buying Transat.

Rouge does provide a J class product on the B767's equivalent to a narrow body J class seats that not what Transat offers on their A330's?

rudder wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:08 pm Much more likely that AC will want to preserve and promote TS in that market segment. TS TATL routes that overlapped AC mainline will revert to mainline. Rouge routes that overlapped TS routes will eventually revert to TS.

Rouge (if it survives) will be the LCC/ULCC competitive product. May also be deployed on domestic city pairs at reduced frequency to replace Express non J-class inventory (as was the case pre-COVID) at a lower CASM.
This all adds up. AC will keep the Transat brand, that's what they're buying and they've made statements confirming this intention. Rouge has served its initial purpose and whether it can be transformed into a ULCC is yet to be determined, its costs have crept upwards. Perhaps AC wants to complete in this market, perhaps not. Canada's aviation infrastructure has not become any friendlier to the ULCC market.

I hope everyone is ready for lots of changes in the next few years.
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