How to get rid of ACPA?

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planebored
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by planebored »

I saw that, but is it really a big issue if it's just JV and codeshare?

Now the Rouge ratios, I'm not OK with. That's a big deal and I think a bid of a red herring.
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landshark
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by landshark »

It’s for 6 months - I don’t think RV is going to be doing too much within that period.
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RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

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Last edited by RippleRock on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
iflyroads
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by iflyroads »

planebored wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:49 pm I saw that, but is it really a big issue if it's just JV and codeshare?
The JV issue allows the company to take the 45 passengers booked on their YYZ to FRA flight to be put on a Lufthansa flight and cancel the AC flight. Essentially the Lufthansa pilots doing ACPA work.

Simplistic view and a lot more to it but it's just one of the many main concerns.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Daniel Cooper »

For 6 months. I've yet to see any of the sky is falling alarmists explain how it doesn't snap back to contract at the end of the 6 months.

Are we going to let the company continue putting people on the street over 2 hours a month while many of us are going to get paid to sit at home? Because I believe that is what's going to happen. This is a business not a charity.
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Dry Guy
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Dry Guy »

iflyroads wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:50 am The JV issue allows the company to take the 45 passengers booked on their YYZ to FRA flight to be put on a Lufthansa flight and cancel the AC flight.
Good? Sending a 250 passenger airplane flying with 45 people is not a money making proposition. Neither is competing against a partner airline that got a 10 billion dollar government bailout while we probably won't get anything.
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skypirate88
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by skypirate88 »

The article 1 lets were in COVID MOA 1 already, read item 12. The barn door has been opened for 6 months already.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Curiousflyer »

RippleRock wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:45 pm MOA #2 is a bag of crap. Just like the "union" that is proposing it.

Does it include the MEC continuing at 82 hrs while the Membership languish at 63 --- 2 hours below the Contract bare minimum??

Article 1 should have been sewn up tight, with NO outstanding grievance. Any "Flat-payer" that votes in favor now gets what they deserve down-line. Let a clear violation of Article 1 go unattended now, and your career is done. Over and out.

Get us a real union. Don't bother wasting your dues on this one, the charity option will get you further.
These scope ratios are nothing new. They are have been “Given up” already in MOA1.0. I don’t recall seeing the outrage about this anywhere 6 months ago.
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RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

I have been asked to remove my posts as they do not follow the "narrative".

I guess the quotes will stay.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

Good luck with things.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Daniel Cooper »

These "Flat-payers" you deride are not going to be easily influenced by fear mongering. They've been subjected to it their whole lives by the media and have become numbed.

Do you know what's actually scary? Having a real layoff notice already in your hand during a major economic downturn when nobody is hiring.

Or Force Majeure, when the company can just stop paying anyone that's not flying. No block guarantees . That's real and it's in the contract.
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RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

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Last edited by RippleRock on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Can you say why it doesn't snap back to contract in 6 months when the MOA ends? I haven't seen any of the doomsayers explain that yet.
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PT6onH20
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by PT6onH20 »

RippleRock wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:21 am
Again vote Scope away for a few buck if you sleep better.

Ripple, Flat payer here- hard to go convey tone, so I wanna make clear I’m not stoking your fire. But help me see it the way you do - Spell it out for me.

My understanding of MOU2 is that the scope/JV lets are for 6 months, after that we go back to the 10 yr plan or work out a new MOU. With the demand as low as it is, I see this scope/JV point as using the right aircraft for the trip, and if that means consolidating and putting our pax on another airline, so be it. Do we really need WBs going across with 70 pax?

What am I missing?
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RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

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Last edited by RippleRock on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Re-evaluate at that time? I'm just trying to see where you're coming from. You're saying we should vote NO now because in 6 months, when it's time to vote again, we might not vote NO then?
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planebored
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by planebored »

RippleRock wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:41 am
Daniel Cooper wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:29 am Can you say why it doesn't snap back to contract in 6 months when the MOA ends? I haven't seen any of the doomsayers explain that yet.

Air Canada will not have fully recovered by March, they will claim that the Scope LET has been very successful for the Corp, and they will be looking for another MOU. What then?
Well hopefully by then the people running for LEC Chair for P4C will have won, and ousted Mike McKay and rebuilt the negots committee with people who aren't looking out for the company's interests. And people who don't have massive conflict of interest also being on the MEC (like the Negots Chair!)...
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RippleRock
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by RippleRock »

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Last edited by RippleRock on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
planebored
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by planebored »

RippleRock wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:57 am
PT6onH20 wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:38 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:21 am
Again vote Scope away for a few buck if you sleep better.

Ripple, Flat payer here- hard to go convey tone, so I wanna make clear I’m not stoking your fire. But help me see it the way you do - Spell it out for me.

My understanding of MOU2 is that the scope/JV lets are for 6 months, after that we go back to the 10 yr plan or work out a new MOU. With the demand as low as it is, I see this scope/JV point as using the right aircraft for the trip, and if that means consolidating and putting our pax on another airline, so be it. Do we really need WBs going across with 70 pax?

What am I missing?

It isn't the pilots job to allocate aircraft and seating. It is our job to protect the career for those coming behind us.

The 10 year framework is our best protection right now. Scope lets are very dangerous, especially so with the acquisition of TransAt on our horizon. After the purchase, there would be nothing stopping TransAt from spooling up to 100% and fly AC code while we sit watch. Remember our last big failing when Sky Regional was created with a "poorly worded pole", and tore a huge hole in us.

This will be a Scope LET VOTE, meaning we would be actively "saying yes" to Scope deviations. Scope is the very foundation on which this career is based. That is a "no-go zone". We MUST draw a line in the sand. These are very dangerous times, and dangerous precedents can be set. We have to choose which road we go down.

ACPA should have NEVER allowed this MOA to be proposed, especially with an active Scope grievance. That means the Corp isn't playing by the rules now. Will they in March?
Preach
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planebored
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Re: How to get rid of ACPA?

Post by planebored »

And if anyone says "well it was already in MOA1" don't forget WE didn't vote for it. The MEC did.

By voting YES on this MOA you're basically giving a big thumbs up to the MEC for MOA1.

Kinda like how we fucked ourselves by voting in the 10 year contract which made us lose our ability to fight FOS in court.
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