How to get rid of ACPA?

[planebored]

Honestly everyone im not opposed for hearing legitimate arguments for switching to ALPA. But all i hear is people BIT$&ing about how ACPA is "Broken". Give some examples about how things can be better. Also just saying ACPA mgmt is useless... well guess what that is useless. The people the members vote in wont change with a change in union. Right now a year 5 FO at AC has alot of options from top of the list 320 to 20 ish percent on a 777. The pay would be between 110 to 180 000 in the 5th year at the company. Compared to Westjet and Jazz as a FO at Jazz prob 50-60000 and westjet maybe 90 000. And the schedule at AC is way better. Dont believe the bullsh!t that Jazz has it all so much better. My buddy whos worked at AC for 2 year on the 320 has 19 days off a month. How HOW do you compete.

Do yourself a favor and stop going on AV canada and caring about such stupid issues and get to AC asap.

Lack of any real accountability or governance.

With the ALPA model you are held to a higher standard, and if things go south you end up in front of a panel of your peers (members from other airlines)..

As it stands right now the MEC Chair has virtually unlimited power, as do a number of unelected committee members and chairs.

[planebored]

I personally know the people who were negotiating on behalf of ACPA with ALPA. This whole thing is stalled because of the Transat deal. They told me they cant keep negotiating a merger of the unions if the company is in talks to purchase a company with a pilot group already represented by ALPA. Basically a conflict of interest.

I still strongly oppose a merger of ACPA and ALPA. But its not a "deep state" conspiracy why they stopped talks.

After this Covid thing is over it might start up again but after the member survey (nice of a union like ACPA to ask its members what they want and post the results). I dont think they will be pursuing ALPA any time soon.

Completely false. I know them too and what you saying is not the case at all. The merger hasn't happened yet, it does not matter.

If anything being in the same union as AT if the merger happens will befit us.

ALPA Intl takes a back seat role, if only one is ALPA you can be sure they will throw the full weight of the association behind Air Transat.

And if you put ALPA up against ACPA, I know who I'm putting my money on.

[Johnny767]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

[rudder]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

The window of opportunity opened. ACPA had maximum leverage. ACPA achieved its wish list. And then acted inconsistently with the responsibility of being part of a larger representational organization. And then the window closed.

There is no prepackaged ACPA/ALPA merger deal sitting on a shelf simply waiting for the AC pilots to pull the trigger. There are several steps and approvals that are now required before any merger can be consummated.

Perhaps discussions will reopen again sometime in the future. Perhaps a majority of AC pilots will decide they want alternative representation. Perhaps there will be a realization for all affected that a single voice for airline pilots in Canada is more effective than the cacophony of multiple competing entities allowing the regulators the opportunity to shop for opinions that support their agenda.

I won’t hold my breath.

[altiplano]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

MM doing a good job representing his interests over representing pilots. What a disappointment he has been.

He's feeding into that fear mongering with his 5 MEC amigos just trying to hold onto their displacements, listing for VO, and voting themselves 82 hours of pay while we are to be happy with 55 hours traded for nothing... a company that still lays off 100/mo.

The whole merger got shelved - there's no question that happened - but the amendment was passed and not subsequently repealed by the ALPA board. It stands if a merger happens.

Rewarding the ALPA-C incumbents at the time with some more US trips, a disproportionate say on affairs, and extended tenure at the top of the ALPA-C pile won't stand forever in the larger association.

Money counts. AC Pilots bring in a ton of due$ - I estimate more than group C in its entirety. That can't be ignored.

Unity brings gains to us all too.

The big Airlines are like, "What are we doing here. Do it already." They want to see it. Again, money, another big airline, economies of scale, cut those dues again.

JD got elected with support from Group C, to temporarily lockout AC Pilots, but if he is going to maintain any credibility with the other big players and the rest of the association, he can't be seen catering to the whims of a handful of senior regional guys in Canada over some BS politics when their is this much money and so much to gain at stake.

[rudder]

The whole merger got shelved - there's no question that happened - but the amendment was passed and not subsequently repealed by the ALPA board. It stands if a merger happens.

Rewarding the ALPA-C incumbents at the time with some more US trips, a disproportionate say on affairs, and extended tenure at the top of the ALPA-C pile won't stand forever in the larger association.

Money counts. AC Pilots bring in a ton of due$ - I estimate more than group C in its entirety. That can't be ignored.

Unity brings gains to us all too.

The big Airlines are like, "What are we doing here. Do it already." They want to see it. Again, money, another big airline, economies of scale, cut those dues again.

JD got elected with support from Group C, to temporarily lockout AC Pilots, but if he is going to maintain any credibility with the other big players and the rest of the association, he can't be seen catering to the whims of a handful of senior regional guys in Canada over some BS politics when their is this much money and so much to gain at stake.

JD has 2 years left on his term. He got elected with support far beyond Group C. I don’t think he is looking over his shoulder.

There are EVP elections next month. We will see who emerges this time as the Group C EVP.

As far as dues are concerned, both the JetBlue and Alaska pilot groups contribute more dues than would emanate from the AC pilots. In other words - the incremental AC pilot dues are a non issue for the future of ALPA.

ALPA has thus far proven that for the most part it does not suffer from the dysfunctional infighting that has been manifest at ACPA for many years. And it is likely that ALPA will be around long after ACPA is simply an entry in Wikipedia.

The AC pilots need to get their own house in order before approaching ALPA again. Surveys are nice but typically are rife with abuse in terms of deriving desired outcomes. Usually elections or actual member votes are the best opportunity to voice the will of the grass roots.

Unless there is some dramatic change in direction, I don’t see any ACPA/ALPA merger on the horizon.

[altiplano]

JD has 2 years left on his term. He got elected with support far beyond Group C. I don’t think he is looking over his shoulder.

I didn't say that he didn't. But the other carriers don't care about BS Canadian regional airline politics.

There are EVP elections next month. We will see who emerges this time as the Group C EVP.

As far as dues are concerned, both the JetBlue and Alaska pilot groups contribute more dues than would emanate from the AC pilots. In other words - the incremental AC pilot dues are a non issue for the future of ALPA.

Again, I didn't say they were needed for the future of the association. But more total dues can equal lower individual dues. I think that's something that's in everyone interest and lots of people can get behind. If you think 100s of millions of future dues collection sitting there to collect is nothing than I'm not sure what to say.

ALPA has thus far proven that for the most part it does not suffer from the dysfunctional infighting that has been manifest at ACPA for many years. And it is likely that ALPA will be around long after ACPA is simply an entry in Wikipedia.

Wawawa... take some shots... ACPA sucks... yayaya...

The AC pilots need to get their own house in order before approaching ALPA again. Surveys are nice but typically are rife with abuse in terms of deriving desired outcomes. Usually elections or actual member votes are the best opportunity to voice the will of the grass roots.

I don't totally disagree there. But I think the only thing out of order is a corrupt governance model (ACPA) and assholes (ACPA and ALPA-C) frustrating the advancement of all of us to hang onto their self import and displacements.

Unless there is some dramatic change in direction, I don’t see any ACPA/ALPA merger on the horizon.

We will see!

[Torontomaplelaughs]

.

[skypirate88]

Worth a follow

https://instagram.com/pilots_against_ch ... 0yteex2lfy

[Dry Guy]

Kind of cringe worthy. I'm not so out of touch to not know memes can be powerful tools of communication and influence. These facebook-tier memes and videos just end up making you look dumb though. It was funny once or twice now it's getting sad. I want ALPA as much as anybody but I don't think this is the way forward.

[planebored]

I think it's fucking hilarious.

[Ratherbe]

Kind of cringe worthy. I'm not so out of touch to not know memes can be powerful tools of communication and influence. These facebook-tier memes and videos just end up making you look dumb though. It was funny once or twice now it's getting sad. I want ALPA as much as anybody but I don't think this is the way forward.

Cringeworthy might be a good handle for whoever has created these. It seems their strategy is not to unite our pilots but to target and insult older pilots - anyone older than them I guess? Raymond are you lurking here? Perhaps some of their posts are ageism ie illegal? Maybe it would be better to focus on the actual issue - ACPA or cALPA.

We left CALPA because the “tail was wagging the dog,” the union was in financial distress, and that they had pursued a labour relations experiment (industrial merger) that went horribly wrong. I see a real risk of a retreat to CALPA.

We could expect the c-ALPA Board to pressure our MEC to hand over our work to the regionals. In 1993, when the 243 junior AC pilots got laid off, our “brothers” flying dash 8’s we’re getting promoted. Reluctantly, they allowed us to come over and fly as their FO’s. Now we have a strong scope clause that has the potential to shut them down. ACPA fought for that scope language and gave up pay to get it.

ALPA’s dues are already considerably higher than ours and I would guess that they are considering increases soon. Once their layoffs kick in the dues revenue will crash and unless they slash their staff and resources who will pay for it all? Us? Expect a large increase in ALPA’s dues. I suspect this will be a deal-killer for most AC pilots.

The “experiment” was an example of unbridled entitlement. ACPA won that fight, hands down, after years of negotiations and litigation. I don’t know what kind of experiment these guys want to partake in now but personally I will have none of it.

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.

[planebored]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.

Who's that?

One of the many Sr skippers living in the Caribbean or Bellingham/Lynden WA to get around Canadian taxes?

The current YVR rep doesn't live in Vancouver. Honestly I don't really care where someone lives as long as they represent me well.

Lastly a move to ALPA is not retreating and you need to stop thinking CALPA = ALPA.

We'll have our chance to vote on it, and you'll have your voice. If it's what the majority want then it's what we do.

I personally think it's time AC pilots stop living on an island.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.


This comment is a perfect metaphor of why we need to toss ACPA to the curb. Our leadership gave itself a pay raise after reducing pay for its members. It removed communication from its furloughs. It defended the worst website this side of the solar system.

The entire industry is failing and we need true unity across all airlines. The government is not our friend right now. They may literally watch us sink with endless restrictions and no plan. ACPA's response is comical at best. We have a CEO making $350k/year and his response has been 1 letter written to the government. We have zero strategy. Zero social media. Zero brand. Zero visibility.

Other unions do not look up to us. When I spoke to other aviation professionals about coming to AC, most had apprehension towards joining an organization that is so hard on its junior members

Managers continue to easily divide & circle us. We need a proper structure to operate. We need to be a force in aviation. This is simply not happening at ACPA.

And that comment about "being out of country" has me chuckling all the way to the crapper. I personally like the idea of someone who see's what a real union can do for it's workers. Look no further than yesterday with United Airlines. Don't worry - ALPA perhaps won't even take us after seeing our dismal performance as of late. They have a brand, you know

[Mrbobmarly111]

.... But that Island is paradise well at least in my mind

[planebored]

.... But that Island is paradise well at least in my mind

Probably because it's all you've known for years and forget (or don't know what it's like now... in 2020) off that Island.

Keep keeping your head in the sand if you like.

I know I, and many others are done waiting for ACPA to finally show up and do something substantial that justifies its existence.

[planebored]

We are in a once in a lifetime event that is threatening all of our careers. We need stability. Yes we will have to change but not retreating to a past failure. ACPA looks after AC pilots only and anyone suggesting we should do otherwise will not get my vote, especially someone not even living in this country.


This comment is a perfect metaphor of why we need to toss ACPA to the curb. Our leadership gave itself a pay raise after reducing pay for its members. It removed communication from its furloughs. It defended the worst website this side of the solar system.

The entire industry is failing and we need true unity across all airlines. The government is not our friend right now. They may literally watch us sink with endless restrictions and no plan. ACPA's response is comical at best. We have a CEO making $350k/year and his response has been 1 letter written to the government. We have zero strategy. Zero social media. Zero brand. Zero visibility.

Other unions do not look up to us. When I spoke to other aviation professionals about coming to AC, most had apprehension towards joining an organization that is so hard on its junior members

Managers continue to easily divide & circle us. We need a proper structure to operate. We need to be a force in aviation. This is simply not happening at ACPA.

And that comment about "being out of country" has me chuckling all the way to the crapper. I personally like the idea of someone who see's what a real union can do for it's workers. Look no further than yesterday with United Airlines. Don't worry - ALPA perhaps won't even take us after seeing our dismal performance as of late. They have a brand, you know

I think I know who he's talking about now... And that individual AFAIK has been back in Canada for the last year or so and recently made a permanent move to Vancouver.

Given the fact he's had the opportunity for years to bail out and go fly in the USA with his wife, but sticks it out here at AC is enough for me to know where his loyalties lie.

['97 Tercel]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

[planebored]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

It's better than I thought it would be, mind you the bar was set pretty low.

At least they are acknowledging the 75 hour flat pay problem from MOA1.


On a related note anyone else find it hard to believe it's only been 6 months? Man... Feels like it's been a year or more since covid started.

[Curiousflyer]

I heard the new MOA is pretty good all considered.

Does AC know something about the future of air travel demand?

It's better than I thought it would be, mind you the bar was set pretty low.

At least they are acknowledging the 75 hour flat pay problem from MOA1.


On a related note anyone else find it hard to believe it's only been 6 months? Man... Feels like it's been a year or more since covid started.

There are some scope items given up, ratios on rouge, JV, and codeshares.