COVID MOA 2

[tony ledsham]

On a scale of 1 to Lubitz...not fair...okay, 1 to Sullenberger...?

Calin should invest in sanity tests post-pandemic. More productivity = higher profit sharing.

And planebored, point taken. Yes I was referring to him, I mentioned the initials, TL.

Didn't click when I read over that.. whoops

In light of reading a recent avherald report on the Germanwings crash, I would like to take back my comparison of TL to Lubitz. It appears the investigation was completely botched and not pre-meditated as we were lead to believe in the media.

I apologize for the comparison.

Apology accepted.

How many "TL's" are there out there? I am unapologetic, as is Ray Hall and and many others here. Do you really think you will be saved, by posting an alias? (L39 guy, 767wuss...) Be proud of yourselves, Do the right thing, don't just lob grenades from the cheap seats. ACPA is imploding and most of you are going along for the ride. There are many great people at ACPA. Encourage the good, kick out the bad. Let's get the house in order, then decide if we want to join ALPA (under our terms...)

[rudder]

.....then decide if we want to join ALPA (under our terms...)

ALPA will be just fine with or without the AC pilots as members just as ALPA is just fine without the AA pilots or SWA pilots or SWG pilots or the CJ pilots. I think that airline pilots would be better off speaking with one professional voice but that idea has always been easier said than done.

Terms flow from a negotiation. There was one window of opportunity that open then closed. Will there be another?

I would suggest the AC pilots need first to consider whether ACPA meets their representational needs. If the answer from the majority is ‘yes’ then the ALPA conversation is moot. If the answer is ‘no’, then consider alternatives including ALPA. It may be the case that the TS pilots will be part of that conversation. Will they have a vote? Will the furloughed AC pilots have a vote? Perhaps it will be up to the CIRB to decide.

I doubt that ALPA is interested in creating new structure just for the AC pilots. I also have no idea if the 2018 ‘deal’ can be resurrected. But that conversation is pointless until the AC pilots (including the TS pilots?) reach a consensus on ACPA.

[alkaseltzer]

Didn't click when I read over that.. whoops

In light of reading a recent avherald report on the Germanwings crash, I would like to take back my comparison of TL to Lubitz. It appears the investigation was completely botched and not pre-meditated as we were lead to believe in the media.

I apologize for the comparison.

Apology accepted.

How many "TL's" are there out there? I am unapologetic, as is Ray Hall and and many others here. Do you really think you will be saved, by posting an alias? (L39 guy, 767wuss...) Be proud of yourselves, Do the right thing, don't just lob grenades from the cheap seats. ACPA is imploding and most of you are going along for the ride. There are many great people at ACPA. Encourage the good, kick out the bad. Let's get the house in order, then decide if we want to join ALPA (under our terms...)

Tony, apology was towards the Lubitz family, not you. Simon on avherald raised enough concerns about the Germanwings investigation, that this crash does not appear to be malicious in any form (i.e. same tail had problems with cockpit door code panel, reported by a previous crew). Only now I am aware of it, though it was updated in 2017; the media never updated us.

As for you sir, videotaping confidential meetings and posting it out there, is below the belt and you put all of us at risk. Unions have good and bad people, not my first rodeo. And I don't necessarily feel the need to join ALPA, only to possibly "zero out" my seniority with other companies. People continue their previous ALPA membership when they move to a non-ALPA airlines for that very intent. So that one day....they'll jump up hundreds of spots if we are all eating at the same soup kitchen.

[altiplano]

And I don't necessarily feel the need to join ALPA, only to possibly "zero out" my seniority with other companies. People continue their previous ALPA membership when they move to a non-ALPA airlines for that very intent. So that one day....they'll jump up hundreds of spots if we are all eating at the same soup kitchen.

Making things up there...

[Sharklasers]

[quote=alkaseltzer post_id=<a href="tel:1130959">1130959</a> time=<a href="tel:1602953392">1602953392</a> user_id=58347]And I don't necessarily feel the need to join ALPA, only to possibly "zero out" my seniority with other companies. People continue their previous ALPA membership when they move to a non-ALPA airlines for that very intent. So that one day....they'll jump up hundreds of spots if we are all eating at the same soup kitchen.

Making things up there...
[/quote]




He is making things up.... sort of......



https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/j ... 10193.html

Bearskin and Wasaya and GGN all bought their seniority into Jazz.
I truly believe ALPA-C is trying to build a precedent for the day they get another crack at our list.
Why risk it?

[altiplano]

That's a deal those guys made with each other at a time they were flying up the lists and short on pilots How many pilots are Bearskin and Wasaya anyway?

It doesn't set precedent and it's not a major airline.

Are ALPA represented US regionals taking runs at United and Delta seniority?

Do Jazz or First Air guys port their seniority to Westjet?

Why risk it? Because it's not a threat and there's lots of upside to ALPA. "Taking another run at our seniority" is just misinformation and fear.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Shortly after I left Jazz in 2014, they started to give seniority preference within the initial groundschool to those who came from ALPA carriers. For example, if there were 10 in the groundschool and two came from ALPA carriers, those two would automatically get #1 and #2 in their respective class (they'd flip a coin to see who got #1).

The other 8 new-hires then drew names out of a hat for their seniority numbers.

This "ALPA Advantage" only benefited your seniority within your specific groundschool... you still slotted in after every other pilot on the list already on the property.

[Sharklasers]

Shortly after I left Jazz in 2014, they started to give seniority preference within the initial groundschool to those who came from ALPA carriers. For example, if there were 10 in the groundschool and two came from ALPA carriers, those two would automatically get #1 and #2 in their respective class (they'd flip a coin to see who got #1).

The other 8 new-hires then drew names out of a hat for their seniority numbers.

This "ALPA Advantage" only benefited your seniority within your specific groundschool... you still slotted in after every other pilot on the list already on the property.

Sure then in 2017 they started letting you take DOH into the Jazz seniority list if you came from certain other airlines.

To be clear I do not believe ALPA international is behind a seniority coup, but I know for a fact certain factions within ALPA-C are still very much interested in ‘writing the wrongs’ of the Air Ontario days and integrating the lists.

[alkaseltzer]

Shortly after I left Jazz in 2014, they started to give seniority preference within the initial groundschool to those who came from ALPA carriers. For example, if there were 10 in the groundschool and two came from ALPA carriers, those two would automatically get #1 and #2 in their respective class (they'd flip a coin to see who got #1).

The other 8 new-hires then drew names out of a hat for their seniority numbers.

This "ALPA Advantage" only benefited your seniority within your specific groundschool... you still slotted in after every other pilot on the list already on the property.

Sure then in 2017 they started letting you take DOH into the Jazz seniority list if you came from certain other airlines.

To be clear I do not believe ALPA international is behind a seniority coup, but I know for a fact certain factions within ALPA-C are still very much interested in ‘writing the wrongs’ of the Air Ontario days and integrating the lists.

THIS is what I was getting at. Both of you crystallized it.

Post-pandemic, with this "flow through" agreement between Jazz (maybe Sky) at the bulk majority of each PIT course (greater than 3/4ths of the class)...I do NOT want in 10 years to have some senior Jazz (or other ALPA DOH) slide in ahead of current guys. Unfortunately, this is a real possibility as in 10 years, more than half of AC pilots would have been hired post-pandemic, with probably 80% from ALPA express carriers.

Imagine if we were ALPA RIGHT NOW, and this Transat transaction were to go through. DOH for everyone. AM I really making things up here? Maybe. But intent has already been proven.

And altiplano, for what it's worth, I do see Jazz as a major player. Not some "junior brother" to us. AC has an equity ownership in them, just like they're about to do with Transat (intent for 100%). Both ALPA carriers.

If we did go ALPA, it would then be spectacularly easy after that to "align" the ALPA "constitutions" (or whatever it's called) to respect DOH across the board.

Not interested in eating at the same soup kitchen.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

[quote=alkaseltzer post_id=<a href="tel:1130959">1130959</a> time=<a href="tel:1602953392">1602953392</a> user_id=58347]And I don't necessarily feel the need to join ALPA, only to possibly "zero out" my seniority with other companies. People continue their previous ALPA membership when they move to a non-ALPA airlines for that very intent. So that one day....they'll jump up hundreds of spots if we are all eating at the same soup kitchen.

Making things up there...

Fear Factor

ACPA is the greatest organization to exist.

From the 1980s logo to it paying its union leaders more than its members - its name used when you look for the term - "Excellence"

AC CEO takes a pay cut - ACPA CEO does not.

AC Employees go to work. ACPA Staff work from home.

ALPA takes to social media to lobby on behalf of the industry. ACPA writes an email to ALPA blaming them for scope violations.

ACPA loves elections where it sets the date before furloughs and send emails with the wrong dates on the said subject.

Election candidates who don't even produce literature. They also work on committees and then vote on the approval of said committees while working on the MEC. The international standard of Governance Models

Web designers - take a look at ACPA.ca for ideas on how to really impress clients with this organized and cosmetically appealing masterpiece.

The membership has spoken - they say - "More Cowbell & More ACPA"

[altiplano]

ALPA merger policy isn't DOH.

ALPA C is nothing as far as setting ALPA policy. They are a Canadian lobbyist.

Under the changes negotiated for ACPA merger, we do not join in ALPA C anyway, we join ALPA A. Even so ALPA C is restructured and the ALPA C President position is removed from holding a voting position on the ALPA executive. Grouo C aligns with other ALPA groups and elects an EVP.

We are not grouped with ALPA C.

Roll call voting rules at ALPA. Do you think any US majors are going to support regional DOH? Group A carriers out number all the small airlines by far and control issues.

[mbav8r]

[quote="DHC-1 Jockey" post_id=<a href="tel:1131009">1131009</a> time=<a href="tel:1602982943">1602982943</a> user_id=14669]
Shortly after I left Jazz in 2014, they started to give seniority preference within the initial groundschool to those who came from ALPA carriers. For example, if there were 10 in the groundschool and two came from ALPA carriers, those two would automatically get #1 and #2 in their respective class (they'd flip a coin to see who got #1).

The other 8 new-hires then drew names out of a hat for their seniority numbers.

This "ALPA Advantage" only benefited your seniority within your specific groundschool... you still slotted in after every other pilot on the list already on the property.

Sure then in 2017 they started letting you take DOH into the Jazz seniority list if you came from certain other airlines.

To be clear I do not believe ALPA international is behind a seniority coup, but I know for a fact certain factions within ALPA-C are still very much interested in ‘writing the wrongs’ of the Air Ontario days and integrating the lists.
[/quote]
You’re correct, it was to set precedent, so you should probably stay far away from ALPA! Should also hope AC doesn’t buy Jazz from Chorus, would probably tip the scale for a representation vote and bam! I’m a wide body Captain!
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
I’m sure you’re correct that some would like to go backwards but my understanding, this was to show the SR pilots that if Jazz was to take over their flying we would welcome them on our list DOH.
By the way, those pilots that came from other carriers into the list, did so under a mobility list and had to indicate by a certain date they wished to come, pass the interview and were given a virtual number, it was not all pilots on their list. The only pilots from another company that came over full DOH was GGN.
Curious, would the scope issue exist if Air Canada were to own Jazz? Hmmm, something to ponder there.

[rudder]

This is all smoke and mirrors from the anti ALPA crowd.

So, for a period of time Jazz allowed reserved seniority numbers for pilots from specific carriers that interviewed as new hires, received job offers, and were permitted to defer for a specifically limited amount of time with a reserved seniority number that coincided with the hiring sequence at the time of the initial job offer.

Guess who else did that? ACPA in PML 1.0. And they ended up opening up deferral rights to ALL new-hires during that time frame, including OTS.

Stick to the facts. ALPA is not out to reorder the AC seniority list. And if the AC seniority list is going to be integrated with another, it will come from either a consensually agreed result, or a result from a sanctioned process.

[rxl]

This is all smoke and mirrors from the anti ALPA crowd.

So, for a period of time Jazz allowed reserved seniority numbers for pilots from specific carriers that interviewed as new hires, received job offers, and were permitted to defer for a specifically limited amount of time with a reserved seniority number that coincided with the hiring sequence at the time of the initial job offer.

Exactly. All smoke and mirrors and just plain old BS.

The system of reserved seniority numbers was, in part, to give the ALPA carriers like Bearskin, Wasaya etc. at least some semblance of control over the mass exodus of pilots driven at the time by Express hiring.
And guess who most, if not all of this vetting of applicants, hiring and training was in support of??

Pretty sinister stuff.

[Art Garfunkel]

ALPA merger policy isn't DOH.

ALPA C is nothing as far as setting ALPA policy. They are a Canadian lobbyist.

Under the changes negotiated for ACPA merger, we do not join in ALPA C anyway, we join ALPA A. Even so ALPA C is restructured and the ALPA C President position is removed from holding a voting position on the ALPA executive. Grouo C aligns with other ALPA groups and elects an EVP.

We are not grouped with ALPA C.

Roll call voting rules at ALPA. Do you think any US majors are going to support regional DOH? Group A carriers out number all the small airlines by far and control issues.

Bang On! Also, ALPA C is just Group C within ALPA-I. They are no different than the airlines that are in Group-B only Group-C ones are from Canada. Group A right now is Delta, United, Fedex, JetBlue and Alaskan.

The misunderstanding and fear factor of ALPA representation at Air Canada is incredible! I can't believe how pilots can be happy with the "Yellow Union" that is ACPA. Its no more than a Student Council. Bloody embarrassing!

[altiplano]

ALPA merger policy isn't DOH.

ALPA C is nothing as far as setting ALPA policy. They are a Canadian lobbyist.

Under the changes negotiated for ACPA merger, we do not join in ALPA C anyway, we join ALPA A. Even so ALPA C is restructured and the ALPA C President position is removed from holding a voting position on the ALPA executive. Grouo C aligns with other ALPA groups and elects an EVP.

We are not grouped with ALPA C.

Roll call voting rules at ALPA. Do you think any US majors are going to support regional DOH? Group A carriers out number all the small airlines by far and control issues.

Bang On! Also, ALPA C is just Group C within ALPA-I. They are no different than the airlines that are in Group-B only Group-C ones are from Canada. Group A right now is Delta, United, Fedex, JetBlue and Alaskan.

The misunderstanding and fear factor of ALPA representation at Air Canada is incredible! I can't believe how pilots can be happy with the "Yellow Union" that is ACPA. Its no more than a Student Council. Bloody embarrassing!

You get it Art.

I can't believe how incapable some in our group are at understanding this.

[alkaseltzer]

ALPA merger policy isn't DOH.

ALPA C is nothing as far as setting ALPA policy. They are a Canadian lobbyist.

Under the changes negotiated for ACPA merger, we do not join in ALPA C anyway, we join ALPA A. Even so ALPA C is restructured and the ALPA C President position is removed from holding a voting position on the ALPA executive. Grouo C aligns with other ALPA groups and elects an EVP.

We are not grouped with ALPA C.

Roll call voting rules at ALPA. Do you think any US majors are going to support regional DOH? Group A carriers out number all the small airlines by far and control issues.

Bang On! Also, ALPA C is just Group C within ALPA-I. They are no different than the airlines that are in Group-B only Group-C ones are from Canada. Group A right now is Delta, United, Fedex, JetBlue and Alaskan.

The misunderstanding and fear factor of ALPA representation at Air Canada is incredible! I can't believe how pilots can be happy with the "Yellow Union" that is ACPA. Its no more than a Student Council. Bloody embarrassing!

You get it Art.

I can't believe how incapable some in our group are at understanding this.

Make a YouTube video and spell it out for us. Don't need to include Hitler on this one.

We'll be more open minded than an episode of Fox and Friends. Pinky promise.

[altiplano]

I don't know how to make a YouTube. But it was spelt out in previous unity initiative newsletters fairly well, including amendments to ALPAs Constitution to accommodate our joining. You can also look at ALPA's website and see their organizational structure, groups, etc.

There's nothing too complicated here, that's why I have such a hard time understanding where guys get all the misinformation from.

Or if you have a specific question?

[a220hereicome]

I can't believe how incapable some in our group are at understanding this.

I think most members voted based on their assessment of the candidates running for their LEC Chair position, not just whether these candidates openly support joining ALPA.

ALPA may very well be the right move under the right terms for us. But if I don’t think a candidate will make a good LEC Chair, then I won’t vote for them. It’s a three year term where you represent members directly with the Company, and represent your base at the MEC. It’s a big deal, and for me personally it’s more than about whether someone will say ‘Aye’ when they ask around the table whether we should join another Union.

I think you’re being a little too quick to pan the entire membership for not being single issue voters.

[altiplano]

I can't believe how incapable some in our group are at understanding this.

I think most members voted based on their assessment of the candidates running for their LEC Chair position, not just whether these candidates openly support joining ALPA.

ALPA may very well be the right move under the right terms for us. But if I don’t think a candidate will make a good LEC Chair, then I won’t vote for them. It’s a three year term where you represent members directly with the Company, and represent your base at the MEC. It’s a big deal, and for me personally it’s more than about whether someone will say ‘Aye’ when they ask around the table whether we should join another Union.

I think you’re being a little too quick to pan the entire membership for not being single issue voters.

The recent election is not what my comment was related to.

I'm speaking to the comments I see and hear directly regarding the misunderstanding of ALPA structure and where we would fit in the event is a merger.

People dismiss looking closer at it with comments and ideas that aren't based on what's real.

The constant misunderstanding of what ALPA Canada, currently ALPA group C, is and where that will go after a merger. ie. ALPA C will no longer be ALPA Canada in the event of an ACPA merger, and we would not join in ALPA Group C, rather we would stand on our own as a Group A airline.

The misunderstanding of what ALPA Canada actually is and it's powers - ie. it's not its own Union, it's essentially a Canadian lobbyist division under the larger ALPA umbrella.

The fear and misinformation that we would somehow be outvoted to have our seniority taken by regionals at ALPA Canada.

The actual cost of dues.

The actual cost of the performance of our association...

I get, but don't necessarily agree with, why guys voted for incumbents in that election.

But we had the unity initiative 2 years ago and a promise that ALPA would hold a roadshow to present what a merger would look like. That all got stopped under MM and the Transat mess, but I'd like to see that roadshow and have the membership get the real picture on what this merger would look like and where we'd actually fit in at ALPA.

I think the membership deserves the real story, and the choice.