COVID MOA 2

[alkaseltzer]

Who gives two flying fucks what the company thinks?

The fact that you ask that says you either were not around during 2012 when the company hammered us into this bullshit contract that I am sure you love.

They did it in large part due to the memberships petty mickey mouse bullshit conduct at the time, including burning down the MEC and electing a band of hardliners mid negotiation who went out of their way to be obtuse and disregarded all sound advice.

They saw the same disharmony that is brewing here today as an opportunity and Calin laughed all the way to that bank.

https://acpa.ca/Media/ACPA/ACPAUpdates/ ... 136211.pdf


Do yourself a favor and educate yourself. Then ask again "who gives a @#$! what the company thinks".

Very helpful link - thank you. If there's more, please let us know, or PM.

[altiplano]

Boy are you smoking the ALPA kool-aid. I'm on my phone right now so I won't answer, as it's too frustrating to type that much.

When I get a chance I will properly respond.

I just thought I'd follow up on what those specifics regarding your losses were.

Speaking about the contract itself? What concessions were made?

I'm genuinely interested.

Or was it just the PTA and covid losses that you were referring to?

[mbav8r]

I think most members voted based on their assessment of the candidates running for their LEC Chair position, not just whether these candidates openly support joining ALPA.

ALPA may very well be the right move under the right terms for us. But if I don’t think a candidate will make a good LEC Chair, then I won’t vote for them. It’s a three year term where you represent members directly with the Company, and represent your base at the MEC. It’s a big deal, and for me personally it’s more than about whether someone will say ‘Aye’ when they ask around the table whether we should join another Union.

I think you’re being a little too quick to pan the entire membership for not being single issue voters.

The recent election is not what my comment was related to.

I'm speaking to the comments I see and hear directly regarding the misunderstanding of ALPA structure and where we would fit in the event is a merger.

People dismiss looking closer at it with comments and ideas that aren't based on what's real.

The constant misunderstanding of what ALPA Canada, currently ALPA group C, is and where that will go after a merger. ie. ALPA C will no longer be ALPA Canada in the event of an ACPA merger, and we would not join in ALPA Group C, rather we would stand on our own as a Group A airline.

The misunderstanding of what ALPA Canada actually is and it's powers - ie. it's not its own Union, it's essentially a Canadian lobbyist division under the larger ALPA umbrella.

The fear and misinformation that we would somehow be outvoted to have our seniority taken by regionals at ALPA Canada.

The actual cost of dues.

The actual cost of the performance of our association...

I get, but don't necessarily agree with, why guys voted for incumbents in that election.

But we had the unity initiative 2 years ago and a promise that ALPA would hold a roadshow to present what a merger would look like. That all got stopped under MM and the Transat mess, but I'd like to see that roadshow and have the membership get the real picture on what this merger would look like and where we'd actually fit in at ALPA.

I think the membership deserves the real story, and the choice.

Let me preface this by saying I spent the better part of a decade at ALPA shops and you are kidding yourself if you deny that there are currently guys who touch themselves at night to the thought of CALPA 2.0 I’m thinking about touching myself again with the latest announcement, Canada's Chorus Aviation receives takeover proposalwhere the tail again gets to wag the dog. There is open discussion of a seniority reorganization by certain senior elected reps and committee chairs in the ALPA ranks. May I remind you that it has only been 4 years since Jazz pilots stopped sueing AC pilots for their seniority numbers, that is a fact. These issues have the potential to come to a real head again should AC decide to expand their equity interest in their regional partners again.

Rudder is correct, there is no canned deal waiting for us. Aside from the Transat acquisition the ALPA deal was partly derailed by ALPA-c's protest. Any future deal will have to be renegotiated and our position would be weakened by appointing an MEC who's entire platform rests on "ALPA by hell or high water".

Speaking strictly as a line pilot I dont see the urgency for the switch portrayed on this forum, and clearly neither does the membership judging from the election results. Further I find it partly disconcerting that a large part of the public criticism of ACPA and the shaming that we are not ALPA seem to be coming from pilots who do not work for Air Canada.

Ill finish by saying that ALPA isnt the panacea that it is being sold as. If it were why is Westjets contract so god damn awful? Why has the TRZ contract been suppressing our wagcon for decades? Southwest and American and Delta dont need big daddy ALPA to come run their show, maybe change should start at home?

Makes sense for Air Canada to reduce the CPA costs, it’s going to be real messy. The certification vote will also be quite interesting, timing wise it could be simultaneously with the transat pilots. Sharlaser, I’m coming for that number.
Anyhow, I digress, but I honestly can’t think of any other investor who would buy an airline that doesn’t “own” it’s flying with a contract that could be renegotiated in CCAA in the next year.

[altiplano]

you are kidding yourself if you deny that there are currently guys who touch themselves at night to the thought of CALPA 2.0 I’m thinking about touching myself again with the latest announcement, Canada's Chorus Aviation receives takeover proposal

Classy...

[mbav8r]

you are kidding yourself if you deny that there are currently guys who touch themselves at night to the thought of CALPA 2.0 I’m thinking about touching myself again with the latest announcement, Canada's Chorus Aviation receives takeover proposal

Classy...

True, there is history with sharklaser, it was tongue in cheek but maybe too soon?

[altiplano]

Whatever man...

[Sharklasers]

you are kidding yourself if you deny that there are currently guys who touch themselves at night to the thought of CALPA 2.0 I’m thinking about touching myself again with the latest announcement, Canada's Chorus Aviation receives takeover proposal

Classy...

I would just like to thank Mbav8r for helping prove my point here that we always need to be cognizant of who we attach ourselves to. Hundreds of regional pilots like Mbav8r are currently giddy like its christmas morning at the thought of sparking another seniority battle.

[spinaxis]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

[Sharklasers]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

You had better believe the leaders of ALPA at Jazz absolutely do believe they are entitled to DOH or better in a merged list.
Thats why they spent the last decade they were in control of ALPA-C establishing a precedent of DOH in acquisition situations. Think about it, why would they gift DOH to GGN, Bearskin and wasaya pilots to the great harm of their current members? There were some at the top were playing the long game to further their own careers.
If we join ALPA the arbitrator will absolutely look at the precedent they have spent years establishing.

1.) ALPA in canada establishes industry DOH seniority. Encore pilots taking DOH to mainline. GGN taking DOH to competitors when they go out of business ect.
2.) AC pilots choose ALPA representation after this seniority systems has been well established.
3.) AC buys chorus.
4.) Jazz pilots show arbitrator well defined history of seniority integrations and show that ACPA merged in well after said precedent established.

[Air.Field]

if the above is true regarding acquisition, can't help but think ACPA stoked the fire on that one.

[Sharklasers]

if the above is true regarding acquisition, can't help but think ACPA stoked the fire on that one.

500 million dollar decisions are not made because ACPA filed a grievance that they will either lose or more likely settle for a sack of magic beans.

[spinaxis]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

You had better believe the leaders of ALPA at Jazz absolutely do believe they are entitled to DOH or better in a merged list.
Thats why they spent the last decade they were in control of ALPA-C establishing a precedent of DOH in acquisition situations. Think about it, why would they gift DOH to GGN, Bearskin and wasaya pilots to the great harm of their current members? There were some at the top were playing the long game to further their own careers.
If we join ALPA the arbitrator will absolutely look at the precedent they have spent years establishing.

1.) ALPA in canada establishes industry DOH seniority. Encore pilots taking DOH to mainline. GGN taking DOH to competitors when they go out of business ect.
2.) AC pilots choose ALPA representation after this seniority systems has been well established.
3.) AC buys chorus.
4.) Jazz pilots show arbitrator well defined history of seniority integrations and show that ACPA merged in well after said precedent established.

ALPA will have a total of ZERO influence in a merger or integration. And people like you and Blake Murphy, Mike McKay, Rob Weiser and company really love to stoke that fear. They are just worried they'll lose their cushy union release and ability to do whatever they want without a single drop of accountability.

[Sharklasers]

Do Jazz pilots really think they'd get anything other than BOTL? Jazz is a feeder for AC and always has been. An arbitrator will see that, pilots leave Jazz to go to AC. Has anyone ever in the history of aviation left AC for Jazz?... It's a regional carrier that doesn't even own their flying. Jazz pilots would be lucky to get fenced into their positions and should be happy with that if a merger ever happens.

You had better believe the leaders of ALPA at Jazz absolutely do believe they are entitled to DOH or better in a merged list.
Thats why they spent the last decade they were in control of ALPA-C establishing a precedent of DOH in acquisition situations. Think about it, why would they gift DOH to GGN, Bearskin and wasaya pilots to the great harm of their current members? There were some at the top were playing the long game to further their own careers.
If we join ALPA the arbitrator will absolutely look at the precedent they have spent years establishing.

1.) ALPA in canada establishes industry DOH seniority. Encore pilots taking DOH to mainline. GGN taking DOH to competitors when they go out of business ect.
2.) AC pilots choose ALPA representation after this seniority systems has been well established.
3.) AC buys chorus.
4.) Jazz pilots show arbitrator well defined history of seniority integrations and show that ACPA merged in well after said precedent established.

ALPA will have a total of ZERO influence in a merger or integration.

Its called precedent and it is the rock upon which our entire legal system is built. It may not be the only factor but the precedent will absolutely be considered.

[mbav8r]

if the above is true regarding acquisition, can't help but think ACPA stoked the fire on that one.

500 million dollar decisions are not made because ACPA filed a grievance that they will either lose or more likely settle for a sack of magic beans.

Unfortunately, the keyboard doesn’t convey the true intent, I’m being sardonic, couldn’t care less as long as I keep my pay and position. I was NOT part of the lawsuit, you are, I’m sure correct that there are still some who will salivate at this.
Me, I’m genuinely concerned about my DB pension, I’m way too old to start over on a new scheme, so I’ll trade you, I’ll vote for a stapled list if you ensure anyone currently in a DB plan stays in it, deal?
Also, I’m sure you’re right, a decision to buy would be on the savings and ability to right size the regional fleet without huge penalty, the scope issue no doubt sweetened the pot.

[Admiral Benson]

I think a much more likely scenario is that the mystery party interested in purchasing a portion of Chorus in in fact the federal government. Talks have been ongoing this week about potential airline aid and the government has made it clear that the regional network will be their priority. I also seriously doubt that AC management would make such a large decision while there are still so many outstanding issues regarding the Transat deal.

[hithere]

Anyone here know anything about corporate law? The release said a “third party” is making the bid. Since AC already owns 10% of Chorus is it still considered third party?

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

[spinaxis]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

Well if they stopped flying they'd be breaking their end of the CPA... I wonder how that would go over. I agree it's probably the feds. Good luck getting it to pass at the board or shareholder level unless they are prepared to pay $8-10/share. Lots of bag holders right now and Chorus is a strong company which will likely come out of this without a problem.

[Kosiw]

Yeah I don't think it's AC.
This is perhaps some sneaky business. Jazz is doing a big portion of AC's actual flying right now. If someone bought them and put a stop to that AC would really be left scrambling to move passengers economically.
It's probably just Trudeau and his little journalist become Finance Minister though.

Well if they stopped flying they'd be breaking their end of the CPA... I wonder how that would go over. I agree it's probably the feds. Good luck getting it to pass at the board or shareholder level unless they are prepared to pay $8-10/share. Lots of bag holders right now and Chorus is a strong company which will likely come out of this without a problem.

Trolls.... always the one hit wonders.

[spinaxis]

Trolls.... always the one hit wonders.

Trolls really was a great movie my daughter loved it!