COVID MOA 2

[Thorjones]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Found CRs burner account

[Ratherbe]

A lot of us are not whining fools but we do have some gems among us!

A lot of us have taken huge paycuts to help minimize layoffs and allow for a quick recovery if that ever happens. That shows integrity and empathy which are positive traits for anyone.

I’m sure this will pass and hopefully by a wide margin. The militant minority fails to see what the repercussions of a NO vote would likely look like. IMO, if this was turned down, the company would react with massive layoffs to “right size” for the next 2 years, file notice to bargain (gut) our contract and proceed to arbitration over the CPA grievance. ACPA would have to remove the entire Negots committee and start fresh kind of like they did following TA1. FOS 2 would be a likely result.

Hopefully the results of MOA2 will at least temporary silence the destructive group on the other forum and allow their leader to seek the professional help he needs before he completely implodes.

[altiplano]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Whiming fool? Hahahs! At least I'm not a bitch. Take a pill Sensitive Sally.

You clearly don't know the answer to what Force Majeure affords the company in the pilot contract, one clause to be suspended... that's all, but it's thrown around like they can do whatever they want and run rough over us.

Force Majeure does not apply to pilot layoff, the company will layoff... sorry, furlough how ever many they want when they want and they don't need Force Majeure to do it. This MOA doesn't change that.

Why don't you start by getting your numbers right aswell, they let go 600 pilots, plus cancelled courses for about 100 guys that were about to start and probably couldn't get their old jobs back.

Other unionised employee groups took zero concessions and their layoff situation reflects that... also a lot of employee groups and social media managers aren't really required to run the core functionality of an airline and they got cut.

I don't care about 55 hours or 63 hours or WTF WestJet got, that's not my problem. I certainly don't care what CUPE or did or didn't do, or the IAMAW although I feel for the plight of my Licensed Engineer brothers stuck under the unskilled masses in that bargaining group.

I care about our pilots being spring loaded to concessions every time the company comes, and without enough self respect to get a snap back, or a sliver of the share of the gains on the recovery.

We always do that, give it up for nothing. I'm glad that we are buying 6 months more certainty, not just for the next 180 or so surplus, but for the whole group, but ACPA's execution stinks. They just bend over and take the terms the company offers every time.

"A little lube on the tip this time Mr.Rovinescu?"

"No, that's a non-starter, now assume the position."

Every fuckin time.

[altiplano]

Altipiano,

Is UA running at 5% revenue ?

You’d rather put more pilots on the streets for some scheduling rules and DH credits ? You think this is the time for that ?

Crack this Crack that, you consPIRACY guys are on a trend.

Réveille toi Alti.

CP

Your comprehension is poor and your fear is high.

I didn't say I wanted to put pilots on the street. Fact is AC will lay off whatever they will, and this MOA didn't change that for long.

AC isn't running on 5% revenues either. No doubt they are getting whacked, but it doesn't mean you check your head at the door and don't scrutinize and take a critical stands in what you're doing.

You guys approach it like this is something you want, like the company is doing is a favour, but the fact is that the company would never do us a favour, this is also something the company wants. There is always leverage - no matter how small - and we always fail to wield it because of scared checkers players like you.

Wide awake!

[altiplano]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

The company is also excluded from seeking arbitration on any Article 1 clause until after 2024. That's explicit in the Framework MOA.

[rudder]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable as is the the saving in training expense.

AC is placing a bet that it will not have to run the mother of all reduction bids in January as this MOA imposes a further delay in right-sizing the airline if that is going to be the inevitable outcome.

All of this is happening in the backdrop of a possible spring 2021 CCAA filing. I am guessing 40/60 chance. That filing would likely be accompanied by a restructuring plan that would move the fleet back to its size 5-7 years ago. AC unfortunately still has in place a circa 2019 commercial plan that may be unsuited to the 2021-2024 reality.

[Fanblade]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

Agreed

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

Grievances have opened doors in the past. We have made the mistake of hanging our hat on language, just like you have above.

75 seat jets to the regionals started as a grievance. The company unilaterally decided 75 seat jets were going to Jazz. Our scope language stated no jets over 50 seats. It was supposed to be a slam dunk. (Insert political interference during crisis here) The issue ended up in interest based arbitration. Jazz got half the 75 seat jets.

10 years later, a Skyregional grievance. Slam dunk.(insert political interference during crisis here) another arbitration, and they and Sky now have all the 75 seat jets BUT limited by a ratio.

It’s a slow process of degrading article 1. But the flow is always only in one direction. Now they are back for the limit on 75 seat jets and Q’s.

While parking AC’s 90 seat jets, the company is unilaterally violating the Ratio that limits the 75 seat jets and Q’s at CPA carriers. You say the language is a slam dunk.

I say I have seen this movie before. Watch this crisis evolve. Watch for the lobbying. Watch for (political interference inserted here during crisis)

During this crisis AC has a bulls eye on the CPA fin limit and they will steer this crisis to that end. Over confidence is a weakness. CR will be working in the background to put us in a corner. By the time we figure it out it will be too late. It’s his calling card. The thing is we should be able to see why. The ratio, if adhered to, would drastically impair AC’s ability to compete, if AC needs to shrink. More so if it is wide body shrinkage. The ratio never contemplated a wide body fleet below a specific level. It would force CPA carrier to park their jets and Q’s. Not going to happen. How do you think that would go over with a government now focused on regional routes?

And we will just work with them, ignore the elephant in the room, all the way to the gun being placed at our head.

I’m senior enough. It won’t impact me. I’m just warning you. I have seen this over and over. You will pay for complacency. The crazy thing is that with all these arbitrated changes to article 1 we have never received anything in return. Always just taken.

[Fanblade]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable.....

How do you figure. 63 hours is pretty normal for a block at the very bottom of the lowest blocking window.

This is my third time down at 63 hours. Prior it was CCAA and the start of Rouge. Both of those were under the contract.

I think this MOA focuses on a bounce back. Lots of temporary seniority gives to get fleets back up and running. However that window will probably close if normality isn’t restored for summer 2021.

[planebored]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.

Found CRs burner account

Or literally any of the many entitled FAs who think their job is so hard and they are irreplaceable. Based on the term "second class" being used which I hear thrown around by them fairly often.

Sorry FA's.. you kinda are. It took what, 6 weeks to get hired at AC? And somehow we have the same C2 passes? You think you are so special? It took me close to a decade to get AN INTERVIEW, and that was considered fast. But socialist Canada and "equality" and all that shit.

[planebored]

A lot of us are not whining fools but we do have some gems among us!

A lot of us have taken huge paycuts to help minimize layoffs and allow for a quick recovery if that ever happens. That shows integrity and empathy which are positive traits for anyone.

I’m sure this will pass and hopefully by a wide margin. The militant minority fails to see what the repercussions of a NO vote would likely look like. IMO, if this was turned down, the company would react with massive layoffs to “right size” for the next 2 years, file notice to bargain (gut) our contract and proceed to arbitration over the CPA grievance. ACPA would have to remove the entire Negots committee and start fresh kind of like they did following TA1. FOS 2 would be a likely result.

Hopefully the results of MOA2 will at least temporary silence the destructive group on the other forum and allow their leader to seek the professional help he needs before he completely implodes.

Reading that place I don't think he's anyone's leader anymore. He's going off the rails and people see it. He needs to see a brain doctor, he has delusions of grandeur and that usually a telling sign of underlying mental health issues.

[planebored]

By all appearances, MOA2 is a further reduction bid without the actual reduction. The payroll saving is quantifiable as is the the saving in training expense.

AC is placing a bet that it will not have to run the mother of all reduction bids in January as this MOA imposes a further delay in right-sizing the airline if that is going to be the inevitable outcome.

All of this is happening in the backdrop of a possible spring 2021 CCAA filing. I am guessing 40/60 chance. That filing would likely be accompanied by a restructuring plan that would move the fleet back to its size 5-7 years ago. AC unfortunately still has in place a circa 2019 commercial plan that may be unsuited to the 2021-2024 reality.

I am somewhat pessimistic and agree with you on a few fronts.

That said I don't see a big fleet reduction, instead I see them pushing for a longer term cost savings recover plan that sees the same amount of fleet with lower pay for 3-5 years to "recover"... And our union will fall for it.

I ask people quite regularly (randoms too) if they would travel if they could. Nearly everyone says yes, and many even bring up how flush they are right now because of CERB and the fact they haven't spent money this summer.

All we need is either a vaccine, or opening of a bunch of air bridges with on site testing with removal of 14 day quarantine and within a few months I would wager a big increase in travel.

[altiplano]

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

We really need to take a holistic approach on our relationship with the Corporation. Shaking hands with someone while you know they're picking your pocket is stupid.

Agreed

The CPA grievance is math. That's all, it's pretty straight forward and not open to interpretation of language or intent. It's math. Any suggestion that it's not a slam dunk Pilot doesn't understand what's being grieved. The comoany is just buying time by going through the grievance process.

Grievances have opened doors in the past. We have made the mistake of hanging our hat on language, just like you have above.

75 seat jets to the regionals started as a grievance. The company unilaterally decided 75 seat jets were going to Jazz. Our scope language stated no jets over 50 seats. It was supposed to be a slam dunk. (Insert political interference during crisis here) The issue ended up in interest based arbitration. Jazz got half the 75 seat jets.

10 years later, a Skyregional grievance. Slam dunk.(insert political interference during crisis here) another arbitration, and they and Sky now have all the 75 seat jets BUT limited by a ratio.

It’s a slow process of degrading article 1. But the flow is always only in one direction. Now they are back for the limit on 75 seat jets and Q’s.

While parking AC’s 90 seat jets, the company is unilaterally violating the Ratio that limits the 75 seat jets and Q’s at CPA carriers. You say the language is a slam dunk.

I say I have seen this movie before. Watch this crisis evolve. Watch for the lobbying. Watch for (political interference inserted here during crisis)

During this crisis AC has a bulls eye on the CPA fin limit and they will steer this crisis to that end. Over confidence is a weakness. CR will be working in the background to put us in a corner. By the time we figure it out it will be too late. It’s his calling card. The thing is we should be able to see why. The ratio, if adhered to, would drastically impair AC’s ability to compete, if AC needs to shrink. More so if it is wide body shrinkage. The ratio never contemplated a wide body fleet below a specific level. It would force CPA carrier to park their jets and Q’s. Not going to happen. How do you think that would go over with a government now focused on regional routes?

And we will just work with them, ignore the elephant in the room, all the way to the gun being placed at our head.

I’m senior enough. It won’t impact me. I’m just warning you. I have seen this over and over. You will pay for complacency. The crazy thing is that with all these arbitrated changes to article 1 we have never received anything in return. Always just taken.

I don't disagree. They are coming at us at all times. Inch here, Mile there.

I do believe it will be hard to arbitrate scope until after 2024 though. We never had language like is in the Framework MOA, explicitly excluding it, in the past.

[snowcone]

Wasn’t the 10 year deal made for times like this?

We gave up so much during the best times in order to have security down the road. We are at that point and the company wants to take more?

ACPA said the company deserves a let with codeshare ratios as they have been such good boys over the last years....has the company ever in it’s existence given us anything extra because we were good to them?

The company will do what they need for layoffs. Training is running full out right now....they wouldn’t be if they didn’t need to. If this gets voted down, we go back to the 10 year deal with very limited items either side can bring to the table to an arbitrator. They can not gut the contract, plane and simple.

Do not throw away your career 20 years down the road in order to be a hero for Calin.

[aV1aTOr]

So much discussion on here about the "scope let". As if it's some massive give. Clearly it's misunderstood.

All the MOA allows the company to do is pause JV ASM data collection for 6 more months (they have already been allowed this for 6 months with MOA 1). That places them in a better position to negotiate JVs in the future without the albatross of 2020 ASM ratio data muddying the water. These JVs have served ACPA pilots very well in the past. Disproportionately well, compared to our JV partner airlines.

It is not relaxing any of the ratios we have in the CA once the MOA expires.
It is not allowing any new JVs that violate our scope articles.
It is giving zero let on capacity purchase flying.
It is simply allowing Air Canada to erase 2020 ASM ratio data for future opportunities.
It was negotiated "without prejudice", meaning it cannot be used by any party as leverage in future negotiations.

WHERE IS THE CONSPIRACY?

[altiplano]

The fact is that we don't know what they were doing to do and we are writing then a blank cheque on codeshare/JV.

There is also setting aside LOU74 ratios. What was the point of the growth/shrink ratio of we are just going to set it aside on the first downturn?

Then there is the unilateral extension to the agreement by the MEC.

And the fact that we are showing we will be leveraged over threat of layoff. The corp will continue to extract concessions from us with that until we finally can give no more, or they calculate they'll come ahead with layoffs, or they decide to shrink staff, and then they'll lay off anyway.

We are also really paying for them to have maximum flexibility in their business plans until they decide what they want to do. And not necessarily that that's all a bad thing, I want My Airline to come through this well and be responsive, but we haven't been recognized for the risk we are taking here. We failed to achieve anything for taking that on. Jobs some will say, but we are buying and paying for those in spades, corp can't go any faster than it has or they wouldn't have enough NB FOs left... besides see above, we are kicking the van down the road at best.

Wasn’t the 10 year deal made for times like this?

We gave up so much during the best times in order to have security down the road. We are at that point and the company wants to take more?

ACPA said the company deserves a let with codeshare ratios as they have been such good boys over the last years....has the company ever in it’s existence given us anything extra because we were good to them?

The company will do what they need for layoffs. Training is running full out right now....they wouldn’t be if they didn’t need to. If this gets voted down, we go back to the 10 year deal with very limited items either side can bring to the table to an arbitrator. They can not gut the contract, plane and simple.

Do not throw away your career 20 years down the road in order to be a hero for Calin.

Yes.

Also, the company said "take it or leave it" to the NC/LRD and doesn't plan on revisiting the agreement, but of course that's what they would say, that's how you apply pressure. That's how Rovinescu gets what he wants, fear of the unknown. Make no mistake that he wants this... he can't let go of more pilots yet, he can't stop paying. Put it back at him and get a better deal.

[Counterpoint]

Altipaino,

This is where your logic fails you, you think the company decides « what they want to do ». They don’t ! The industry has been decimated, your career will suffer, we are at the mercy of the virus and a worldwide pandemic. It needs to be addressed. Don’t let a temporary training backlog fill your mind with grandeur and prophecy, it’s a potential ramp up to something our industry may not return to.

You can ignore the virus like Trump has, and you can say don’t pay for it now (are we really paying with moa2 ?), but you and your no voters have actually said that you’d rather lay off now 190+ pilots more ahead of any changes to something that adresses the virus/pandemic. Rouge ratios are a tool, mild scope (with a snap back) alterations are a tool, stop ignoring the devastating effects of surplussing pilots from ignoring what is happening to our industry and short to medium overstaffing. You are putting your conspiracy ahead of your colleagues employment.

Also, asking for a dh credit and some scheduling tweaks seems a bit petty now.

Enlève tes bottes d’la bouet Alti !

CP

[altiplano]

Altipaino,

This is where your logic fails you, you think the company decides « what they want to do ». They don’t !

of course they do. we don't influence them. what's best for the corp is exactly what they will do. they don't consult us or do any favours.

The industry has been decimated, your career will suffer, we are at the mercy of the virus and a worldwide pandemic. It needs to be addressed.

what needs to be addressed? which concessions we will take?

Don’t let a temporary training backlog fill your mind with grandeur and prophecy, it’s a potential ramp up to something our industry may not return to.

right. they will get people downtrained, clear that backlog, and then the layoffs will come anyway.

You can ignore the virus like Trump has, and you can say don’t pay for it now (are we really paying with moa2 ?),

Trump? give me a break.

your parallel here is absurd, and again your comprehension is challenged. we are paying for the company to have flexibility. and prepare to right size if required, and that's fine too an extent, I don't have a problem with reduced MBG, but to make wide open concessions on top of that is ridiculous.

but you and your no voters have actually said that you’d rather lay off now 190+ pilots more ahead of any changes to something that adresses the virus/pandemic.

again you are drawing the wrong parallel. nobody wants to see lay offs and you don't actually know if they would come and when and really it does not matter because 190 and more will come as soon as the company, gets a better picture, is positioned right, and calculates they can't extract more concessions from us. no body wants to see lay offs. why did the company set the surplus like that in the last CRB and set the next notice the day after the MOA expired? pressure. send some fear. extract gains ACPA isn't even looking at where the layoffs are and how viable they really are. we just muddle along without any real analysis, and a fraction of the info.

Rouge ratios are a tool,

right, so why aren't we using them? grow in the good, shrink in the bad.

mild scope (with a snap back) alterations are a tool,

they are not a tool. they are job security. and there are not any snapbacks, snapbacks were a "hard no" from the company. think about that.


stop ignoring the devastating effects of surplussing pilots from ignoring what is happening to our industry and short to medium overstaffing. You are putting your conspiracy ahead of your colleagues employment.

WTF are you even saying here dan? yeah, we're overstaffed for today and the company doesn't know what the staffing should be for 6 months from now, let alone Christmas, or next month. and we are taking concessions to help them with that, and then we are taking concessions on top of that. there isn't any upside here.


Also, asking for a dh credit and some scheduling tweaks seems a bit petty now.

petty? improving our contract every chance we can? we share in the hard times so we can gain in the good times. quid pro quo, no? little things add up. no crisis wasted

Enlève tes bottes d’la bouet Alti !

What are you talking about?


CP

Fact is, looking through past posts, Counterpoint is a company shill and only comes out to pump the deals.

- pro TA1
- pro LWC/lou74
- pro pension crisis scare

How did all that end up?

- fucked us
- divided us
- still paying extra into an overfunded account while the company takes a holiday and in fact monetizes it with a MER and subsidiary re-insurance scam. remember, when they wind it up, the corp keeps the surplus too!

[Counterpoint]

I guess you are right Altipaino, you also seem angry.

The ACPA has leverage, and should stop asking the pilots for any changes to the contract. It’ll all be just fine.

Revenue for Q2/2020 was 11% of Q2/2019. Nothing to see here.

AC is on track for a 5+ Billion dollar loss for this year. Just a temporary blip, carry on.

Our timing for contract improvements has never been better. No concessions !

Your « no » vote will show to your colleagues that you feel they are expendable (that makes me angry) and show the company you mean business.

Virus, pandemic and industry pppft not the ACPA’s problem. I feel so silly for even suggesting your logic was wrong.

Lâche pas Alti t’est hotte

CP

[a220hereicome]

- still paying extra into an overfunded account while the company takes a holiday and in fact monetizes it with a MER and subsidiary re-insurance scam. remember, when they wind it up, the corp keeps the surplus too!

Ummmm.

Don’t know about the Mars Exploration Rover or auto insurance.

But the pension surplus belongs to the pilots.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

What was the point of the growth/shrink ratio of we are just going to set it aside on the first downturn?

"first downturn" Wow....you really need to get out a little...if that's your read of the situation then no wonder your ideas are so out in left field