Calin is retiring February 2021

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pilotbzh
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by pilotbzh »

flashheart wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:14 am
Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:11 pm
pilotbzh wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:56 pm His DB was negotiated in 2018 at 750k/year.... good think he’s put away a few millions during his times at AC, life is so expensive these days :roll:
RippleRock wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:22 pm I wish him a happy and long retirement. He was an asset to the AC Shareholder. Pilot profession not so much.

While I'm sure he "appreciated us" and all our "contributions" to the success of the share price, we were never respected. We exposed our "professional underbelly" far more than any CEO should have ever seen it in a lifetime, let alone a single decade.

Isn't he the guy that saved the company from its path to bankruptcy. How much is that worth to your pay over your career with them.

I suppose there are some who are arrogant enough to think that the taxpayer is their backstop so a shutdown should never happen.

Perhaps a Thank You letter would be appropriate.
Dear Calin,

I just want to thank you for doing your job. I know you took a paycut and I know how difficult it is to survive on millions.

Anyhow, all the best in retirement and great move on the 4 years flat pay for international airline pilots! I was happy to donate personally to the growth of the airline. Just don't tell my wife!!

Cheers

AC Fanboy & Hopeful Manager Oneday

PS ACPA is GREAT!
You must be Montreal based.... :lol:
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Ratherbe
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Ratherbe »

Flash,
You can blame the union for not improving flat pay, Calin doesn’t care how we distribute the pilot payroll. You can also blame your peers because I haven’t seen any move by anyone, junior or senior, to make any changes to flat pay.
However, you can thank Calin for pulling this airline out of the gutter and turning it into something most of us are proud to be a part of. We have grown our pilot ranks from 2,800 to almost 5,000 during his tenure while consistently producing record profits. Conversely, our history pre-Calin was consistently producing financial losses and having anemic or no growth.
Once this pandemic is over hopefully we will grow again and maybe even be in a better position than the last few years.
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Torontomaplelaughs
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

Ratherbe wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:58 pm Flash,
You can blame the union for not improving flat pay, Calin doesn’t care how we distribute the pilot payroll. You can also blame your peers because I haven’t seen any move by anyone, junior or senior, to make any changes to flat pay.
However, you can thank Calin for pulling this airline out of the gutter and turning it into something most of us are proud to be a part of. We have grown our pilot ranks from 2,800 to almost 5,000 during his tenure while consistently producing record profits. Conversely, our history pre-Calin was consistently producing financial losses and having anemic or no growth.
Once this pandemic is over hopefully we will grow again and maybe even be in a better position than the last few years.
Dear Calin,

Thank you for doing your job and my jelly bean of the month Christmas bonus.

I am a proud member of the Calin Fanboy Club and I hope to be the president one day.

Signed,

Mr Ratherbe aManager
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Dh8Classic »

I guess it just proves that saving the airline, which offered guys the opportunity to upgrade quickly to the higher pay scale over their career will not endear them to you.

I suppose the reality of ‘Why pay them more as they will hate me no matter what I give them’ could apply.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by RippleRock »

Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:44 pm I guess it just proves that saving the airline, which offered guys the opportunity to upgrade quickly to the higher pay scale over their career will not endear them to you.

I suppose the reality of ‘Why pay them more as they will hate me no matter what I give them’ could apply.
Interesting notion, but he was never hated, or shouldn't have been.

So he grows the Company to increase shareholder value, and make himself rich in the process. Growing the airline means more planes. A plane needs two engines and as few pilots as you can get away with to run it, because it will not move without them. A non moving airplane is a depreciating liability, so it must move. We would not be here if the aircraft didn't require at least two pilots. Both are necessary in commercial operation for the foreseeable future. By necessity there were more pilot jobs, or shareholder value would not have risen much.

It was never his objective to create more pilot jobs.....ever. We were burried somewhere in "operational costs" during the expansion process. We were never more special than that. In addition, there was no favour. More jobs occurred out of necessity, nothing more. We would be cut loose tomorrow if aircraft could suddenly fly themselves. Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits. We were held firmly to the contract.

Unless you count the "Shine" program. Its bought me a pretty nice toaster over the years. :roll:
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Dh8Classic »

RippleRock wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm
Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:44 pm I guess it just proves that saving the airline, which offered guys the opportunity to upgrade quickly to the higher pay scale over their career will not endear them to you.

I suppose the reality of ‘Why pay them more as they will hate me no matter what I give them’ could apply.
Interesting notion, but he was never hated, or shouldn't have been.

So he grows the Company to increase shareholder value, and make himself rich in the process. Growing the airline means more planes. A plane needs two engines and as few pilots as you can get away with to run it, because it will not move without them. A non moving airplane is a depreciating liability, so it must move. We would not be here if the aircraft didn't require at least two pilots. Both are necessary in commercial operation for the foreseeable future. By necessity there were more pilot jobs, or shareholder value would not have risen much.
Nobody is at any company(in general) is there if they are not required. And Calin wouldn't be there for the shareholders if he wasn't required(maybe artificial intelligence someday). That's the way it works.
RippleRock wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits.
I doubt you would sharing too many dimes with F/A's(with occasional exception) and baggage handlers if ACPA had somehow been able to suddenly negotiate a nice big bonus partway through that contract.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Ratherbe »

Remember, Calin was very rich when he took on the job in 2009. Why would he want all the headaches if it wasn’t money?

The 10 year deal, such as it was, guaranteed growth. Airlines, big or small, have always promised pilots shiny new airplanes in exchange for some kind of cooperation. That deal assured the shiny new planes actually showed up. It also assured us that the militant minority would not be able to attempt another ill-conceived war (see the ACPA Audit). As a group, we sacrificed the possibility of large pay rate increases for certainty.

Big airplanes gave us big pay cheques and more pilots per airplane. We were just starting to see the next stage of Calin’s growth strategy with the narrow body expansion (B737 and A220). Now that’s all gone and they need to develop a completely new business plan. Meanwhile we still have the 10 year deal in place with it’s certainty.

Personally, I was disappointed with the 10 year deal but in hindsight it looks like it was the right decision for our pilots to make.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by spinaxis »

I threw up in my mouth a little bit reading that post. You sound like you'd make a great manager.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Ratherbe »

You should really see a doctor about that :roll:
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by RVR6000 »

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Last edited by RVR6000 on Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

RippleRock wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm It was never his objective to create more pilot jobs.....ever. We were burried somewhere in "operational costs" during the expansion process. We were never more special than that. In addition, there was no favour. More jobs occurred out of necessity, nothing more. We would be cut loose tomorrow if aircraft could suddenly fly themselves. Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits. We were held firmly to the contract.
Not trying to be harsh, but I find your comments baffling.

1. Employee costs are operating costs everywhere - this is not unique to Air Canada.

2. What made you think you were "special" in the first place, or that your employer owed you favours of any kind?

3. Jobs "occur out of necessity, nothing more" everywhere, not just at Air Canada. Long-term successful employers hire skilled employees because they need them to run their business, not out of some misguided sense of altruism.

4. If you negotiated a binding contract, why would you have thought there should be any provision to pay you "one dime" more than what you had negotiated at the bargaining table? As a skilled professional, in a large-company environment, exactly what would you expect to happen other than that your counterparty would hold you firmly to the terms of a contract to which you and your colleagues had agreed?

As a prof of mine decades ago used to love to point out, "Business is business, and love is bullsh*t." And as an HR executive at a former employer once opined, "You think you're special? You think you'll be missed? Go pull your hand out of a bucket of water, and as long as the ripples last, that's how long you'll be missed." I have found both comments provided useful perspective over the years in dealing with multiple employers. As others here have pointed out, you're worth what you negotiate: nothing more. Never fall in love with your employer, and never, ever expect your employer to love you back.
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hithere
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by hithere »

Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves
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RippleRock
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by RippleRock »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:49 pm
RippleRock wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm It was never his objective to create more pilot jobs.....ever. We were burried somewhere in "operational costs" during the expansion process. We were never more special than that. In addition, there was no favour. More jobs occurred out of necessity, nothing more. We would be cut loose tomorrow if aircraft could suddenly fly themselves. Never forget that we weren't given "one dime" over and above what we contractually negotiated (in our wonderful 10 year deal) while the company was raking in huge profits. We were held firmly to the contract.
Not trying to be harsh, but I find your comments baffling.

1. Employee costs are operating costs everywhere - this is not unique to Air Canada.

2. What made you think you were "special" in the first place, or that your employer owed you favours of any kind?

3. Jobs "occur out of necessity, nothing more" everywhere, not just at Air Canada. Long-term successful employers hire skilled employees because they need them to run their business, not out of some misguided sense of altruism.

4. If you negotiated a binding contract, why would you have thought there should be any provision to pay you "one dime" more than what you had negotiated at the bargaining table? As a skilled professional, in a large-company environment, exactly what would you expect to happen other than that your counterparty would hold you firmly to the terms of a contract to which you and your colleagues had agreed?

As a prof of mine decades ago used to love to point out, "Business is business, and love is bullsh*t." And as an HR executive at a former employer once opined, "You think you're special? You think you'll be missed? Go pull your hand out of a bucket of water, and as long as the ripples last, that's how long you'll be missed." I have found both comments provided useful perspective over the years in dealing with multiple employers. As others here have pointed out, you're worth what you negotiate: nothing more. Never fall in love with your employer, and never, ever expect your employer to love you back.

Why don't you read what I posted again. This time from the top. My post were not meant to be read in isolation.

I was trying to illustrate that the relationship was one-sided and "pure" business. Respect was owed, but no thanks. I never once said that I felt a lack of "love". (most people get plenty elsewhere)

We had everything taken from us by an "outmaneuver" during FOS, orchestrated by CR with the cooperation of the Federal government. Our right to negotiate a contract free of coercion, manipulation and threat was denied us. Through this, the pilot group "gave" far more than all other groups combined, many times over. Numbers as high as $150,000,000 in lost WACON are being tossed around.

Some pilots at AC seem to think they "owe thanks" for saving the Corp. My position is that it wasn't saved or made great for our benefit, as it was not an alturistic play. Business almost never is. Some who think they owe "thanks" don't remember that not one dime of that hundred mill + which was stripped from our contract during the FOS play was returned, or even given any consideration during years of excess profits. In fact we were forced to continue to fund an "overfunded" pension when completely unnecessary. Acknowledging that "FOS donation" in some form would have been "respectful", not what you call "showing love".

I said we should give no thanks as we received nothing outside the contractural minimum. We should have been respected more for what was taken.
I also did say he should be respected as a shrewd business man.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
spinaxis
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by spinaxis »

"Thanks" don't pay my bills.

There is way too much of the attitude among AC pilots that we saved the airline. Or that we need to be ready to help any time there is a problem and it's slowly ruining our contract and the profession. Just look at what's going on at CX right now. Calin's wet dream to get all the pilots on a Z scale! And the sad part is he'd likely have no trouble manning the positions.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

hithere wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pm Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves
Professionals across the board invest money, time and effort to earn their qualifications: just ask a lawyer. Or an engineer. Or a physician. Or an architect. Pilots aren’t unique.

On the other hand: you're absolutely correct that responsibility for 200 – 300 souls on board means that the stakes in your profession are significantly different. So maybe take some of that venom and use it to convince your employer you are valuable and deserve a better deal. Getting your knickers in a knot on here really isn’t accomplishing that.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by I WAS Birddog »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:05 am
Professionals across the board invest money, time and effort to earn their qualifications: just ask a lawyer. Or an engineer. Or a physician. Or an architect. Pilots aren’t unique.

On the other hand: you're absolutely correct that responsibility for 200 – 300 souls on board means that the stakes in your profession are significantly different. So maybe take some of that venom and use it to convince your employer you are valuable and deserve a better deal. Getting your knickers in a knot on here really isn’t accomplishing that.
I wish there were more of this mindset in the aviation industry. Brilliant post YYZSaabGuy....brilliant.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by Ratherbe »

Yes and there are some lawyers, doctors and engineers with an inflated sense of self worth too. We’re not alone in that category but it’s not the norm.

I just hope we can learn from our mistakes. You would think that pilots would be really great at that. There was a detailed external audit completed by ACPA following the FOS arbitration in 2012 that clearly laid out how we lost over $250M from what was on the table. Every ACPA member has access to it.

As for CR’s role in that process, he was proving a point. Work with me and I will work with you. Fight me and you will regret it. He sent out a letter to the pilots warning them and warned the MEC in person. It’s all in the audit. We chose to fight him. All I can say is it would have been far worse if someone like Milton had been in the room instead.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

hithere wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pm Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves
poetry!
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by alkaseltzer »

CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:41 pm
hithere wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pm Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves
poetry!

Patience Frodo.

Wait for the full hull losses to start rolling in the industry and you may see some drastic changes. Should happen over this winter season.

And you can also thank the Space Cadet Minister for encouraging this situation. His buddies at the Canadian Space Agency are not on wage subsidy.
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Re: Calin is retiring February 2021

Post by tbaylx »

alkaseltzer wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:49 pm
CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:41 pm
hithere wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:40 pm Yup many of your Business prof’s observations are valid except in the unique world of unionized multi fleet airlines where it costs more to lay off pilots than it does to keep them employed at a lower minimum monthly guarantee. Maybe your asshole capitalist prof should have done some more research. Like in what other industry do the employees(pilots)who spend enormous amounts of money to get qualified and then take a 100 million dollar ac on a transcontinental mission with 100(at least) litigious pax to be treated like absolute shit the minute you deem
Us surplus? All of you MBA vielding losers would shit yourselves on a dark and dirty night in YYT but the minute you are parked safely at the gate you write our lay-off slips? Go F$0$ yourselves
poetry!

Patience Frodo.

Wait for the full hull losses to start rolling in the industry and you may see some drastic changes. Should happen over this winter season.

And you can also thank the Space Cadet Minister for encouraging this situation. His buddies at the Canadian Space Agency are not on wage subsidy.
Curious. Why now, with only the most senior pilots left operating for the most part, we'd see hull losses start to roll in this winter? Wouldn't that have been more likely a year ago with cadets and quick upgrades?
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