Cargo TA

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FL320
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL320 »

Ratherbe wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:25 pm Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.
EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

altiplano wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:53 am They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.
Yup.

AC is fortunate because it can propose modifications to TATL capacity that are inevitable due to COVID. It would only be in the 2023 timeframe and beyond where permanent route or frequency forfeitures would matter.

I would expect that the commercial plan going forward is to use TS capacity on former Rouge TATL routes and mainline capacity on the traditional TATL city pairs.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:23 am
altiplano wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:53 am They can't not approve the deal or prevent the deal from happening, but they may say that you can not fly such and such a route, or such and such a frequency for a period of time, or other restrictions the pencil pushers may dream up, limits on codeshare or joint venture, slot divesture, etc.
Yup.

AC is fortunate because it can propose modifications to TATL capacity that are inevitable due to COVID. It would only be in the 2023 timeframe and beyond where permanent route or frequency forfeitures would matter.

I would expect that the commercial plan going forward is to use TS capacity on former Rouge TATL routes and mainline capacity on the traditional TATL city pairs.
I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

altiplano wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:12 am
I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...
AC is putting 20 NB Airbus back in service at Rouge.

If AC adds the rumoured residual fleet of 12 TS 330’s and 15 TS 321’s and designates that integrated fleet as the LCC (assuming just 1 operating certificate), does that comply with the current Article LOU 74 fleet restrictions?
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

Rouge - becomes lcc to compete with swoop
TrZ - becomes leisure
Cargo - becomes Ac new division
Ac mainline - legacy routes

Anyone see this differently?
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FL030
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL030 »

Yes, I think they'll combine Rouge and Transat brand to avoid dilution.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:18 am
altiplano wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:12 am
I expect the same. The pandemic was an aucpice to shutdown rouge and the nearly 1000 AC Pilot jobs it was and transfer all the flying to Transat. I don't doubt that was the concessions made to the EU regulator, all European and European Caribbean rouge flying forfeited to Transat.

I hope ACPA is paying attention to the implications here (not likely). 1000 AC Pilot jobs...
AC is putting 20 NB Airbus back in service at Rouge.

If AC adds the rumoured residual fleet of 12 TS 330’s and 15 TS 321’s and designates that integrated fleet as the LCC (assuming just 1 operating certificate), does that comply with the current Article LOU 74 fleet restrictions?
The base fleet was 50 with a max of 25 WBs, then there was growth and shrink ratios that will have to be accounted for. You'd need to see the total number of equivalent Mainline fins in operation (C-Series doesn't count as equivalent unless they pay 319 rates).
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

GATRKGA wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:03 am Rouge - becomes lcc to compete with swoop
TrZ - becomes leisure
Cargo - becomes Ac new division
Ac mainline - legacy routes

Anyone see this differently?
I had a manager suggest that there was a scenario with up to 5 operating certificates.

I thought it was preposterous. Now it seems almost imminent.
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Cappo1
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Cappo1 »

FL320 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:30 pm
Ratherbe wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:25 pm Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.
EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).
If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
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Savage Poetry
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Savage Poetry »

Victim card is about to be played in 3, 2, 1....
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Monkey_in_a_suit
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Monkey_in_a_suit »

Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:30 pm
Ratherbe wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:25 pm Anyway it’s all contingent on the EU approval. I’m sure our former Prez will be trying to block it for the benefit of AF.
EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).
If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
Cappo1 you realize you're not suppose to drink the Bong water
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm
If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
Ha! So not only do you own Air Canada and make their corporate decisions, you also do so with a malevolent hand? We all bow to you. Hilarious.
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Gulfstream5
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Gulfstream5 »

Monkey_in_a_suit wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:14 pm
Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm
FL320 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:30 pm

EU will approve the deal as AC just submitted concessions to make it happen. At the end EU will never prevent a transaction between 2 Canadian companies. As AT shareholders will vote yes, the only one who may stop the deal at this stage is our beloved Marc Garneau (who’s busy cooking pancakes).
Your former Prez is just a muppet (doing a great job) at the top of AF who has 0 power in Brussels (and they would even be happy to kill AF if they could...).
If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
Cappo1 you realize you're not suppose to drink the Bong water
I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.
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FL320
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL320 »

Gulfstream5 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:46 pm
Monkey_in_a_suit wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:14 pm
Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm

If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
Cappo1 you realize you're not suppose to drink the Bong water
I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.
I understand your fears and frustration; but that won’t change the outcome. You should take it easy; we will become like a big family, peace.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by GATRKGA »

Gulfstream5 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:46 pm
Monkey_in_a_suit wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:14 pm
Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm

If you were a nice guy I might be sympathetic to your jeuevenile tantrums. When you find time away from your video games take a look at the situation in the EU. They have every right to reject the the proposal as it stands now. Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country. If AC leaves TS as a leisure airline it might work. You will be lucky to be back on board by 2023. No guarantees for you pal. Your airline is limping along. We can chop TS up anytime we want. We have the hulls and we really don't need to use the employees.
Cappo1 you realize you're not suppose to drink the Bong water
I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.
The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. :goodman: Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

GATRKGA wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:39 am
Gulfstream5 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:46 pm
Monkey_in_a_suit wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:14 pm

Cappo1 you realize you're not suppose to drink the Bong water
I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.
The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. :goodman: Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!
Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.
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columbia
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by columbia »

altiplano wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:35 am
GATRKGA wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:39 am
Gulfstream5 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:46 pm

I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.
The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. :goodman: Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!
Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.
Yes there is a scope. No wet lease as long as TS pilots are laidoff is part of it.
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DanWEC
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by DanWEC »

Isn't there another thread where we can insult each other over the merger? :lol:
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FL320
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by FL320 »

Cappo1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:29 pm Europe is crumbling and no one wants to venture there. Canadian industries are being hit harder and households cannot afford the visit the folks in the old country.
You may be living in a bunker at the moment, but for info all TS flights to Paris are full in december, people are travelling to Europe (VFR).
Also today travel agencies in Quebec reported a surge in bookings to sun destinations. But I agree people will look for the cheapest flight and best services; so we can understand why AC is so interested in Transat: focusing on the cargo and the leisure market is a great decision :)
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