Cargo TA

[Savage Poetry]

The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!

Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.

Yes there is a scope. No wet lease as long as TS pilots are laidoff is part of it.

Thats some solid scope

[GATRKGA]

I can assure you that cappo's sink is far cleaner than whatever water source you and Fl320 use in the van you both have parked by the airport. Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first. Let's think LOGIC. 2021 is just around the corner and decisions are on the horizon.

The EU does not want any potential competition that could hurt their already struggling airlines that they have just bailed out. Spending billions then giving the green light for us to merge ? Again. Logic speaks reason.

The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!

Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.

Alti, I don’t think anyone who disagrees with me is a junior. But when I see replies like what I quoted, it gets pretty easy to see what their fears are based on where they sit career and seniority wise. As any pilot in this long enough understands the cyclical patterns of our business and doesn’t get bent out of shape over it.

Now to your point about scope. You’re right. AC pilots own the flying unlike transat pilots who do not own the flying. But transat pilots also do get remunerated if their flying is given elsewhere, and someone mentioned inability to have leased flying when members are on lay off.

Solid or not solid, those are the boundaries of the collective agreement.

While I don’t think transat pilots will eat air Canada pilots lunch, I do think every single transat pilot will be recalled to a job sooner than Ac pilots if leisure springs back. Which according to FL320 has already seen a surge in demand.

But I also think what’s important to note is that transat pilots also would be ac pilots, so you’d be correct in that transat pilots wouldn’t eat ac pilots lunch AS TS pilots. No, they’d eat their lunch as AC pilots under a fenced operation owned by AC, with recall rights to an operating certificate which current ac pilots wouldn’t have access to until the fences come down.

Neither side should be proud or strive for anyone’s lunch being eaten, but MR likely shifts flying to the outfit where his workforce and operating costs are cheaper unless a brand new cba is negotiated. Which based on your cargo outcome, I wouldn’t enlist much faith in acpa to negotiate anything worthwhile, especially while further divided with the integration of 700 odd ts pilots.

What’s the reality? Everyone will have a job, but likely at the expense of a down graded cba quality wise in exchange for the promise of “growth” blah blah blah to suave short term thinkers into thinking it’s a good deal cause you know, upgrades and widebodies. Which is like music to the ears of anyone who is currently stocking toilet paper at sobeys.

Retirements are coming, and TS was set to expand by 14% due to fatigue rules. Same sort of expansion also existed over at AC relatively. The reduced travel demand (immediate) will be matched by that in the next while.

Good luck guys!

[altiplano]

The EU could give a rats ass about a merger and how that affects recalls between ts and ac pilots.

What they care about are the business derivatives which impact their Industry, to which ac offered the required concessions.

As for whether ts pilots and mechanics will be needed or not and as for who gets recalled first, usually a pretty healthy fence is setup between the two companies to avoid exactly the sort of bs coming out of your doctrine.

This allows for a temporary lapse between the acquisition and the amalgamation of two employee groups.

Ac has already mandated to keep the air transat brand, which using your LOGIC, makes sense, as why would you dissolve a brand that you couldn’t kill? There’s a strong reason to acquire it, even during a pandemic. People prefer transat for one reason and another when it comes to their vacation travel. Call it bogus or not, but they do something right on a world scale to be the top in their game. So Ac wants that, and while they’re at it, also eliminates a direct competitor and brings it in-house.

Those fences would by default and LOGIC dictate that even if you merge a TS pilot onto the ACPA list, no TS pilot can bid into ac positions, and no ac pilot could bid into TS positions until the fences come down.

So as you said, LOGIC dictates that no TS pilot would be recalled ahead of an AC pilot, to an AC position, until fences come down. Which if labour stability is the name of Cr and Mr’s game for the last decade and a bit, they will maintain fences long enough until either a negotiated removal of the fence is in the best interest of everyone, or so far away that this conversation as a whole is pointless because there would be mass positions galore to run a system wide equipment bid without leaving a surplus.

All you ac guys don’t need to worry about who gets recalled first. What you need to worry about is if leisure springs back, you lost 1000 pre-fatigue rules positions in the acpa seniority list and those positions are going to a fenced transat you can’t bid into until a mass equipment bid is ran, which then also invites them haabs fans into your precious positions.

The actual impact of the “merger” won’t be felt until a systemwide equipment bid is ran, and if we are to respect no bump no flush, I guess a pretty junior 330 FO could maintain his position at TS if he doesn’t bid over to AC. Vice versa as well, a pretty junior 787 FO wouldn’t lose his position to a 330 FO at TS even if the TS fo is more senior, all thanks to how fencing works. There’s a reason they’re used.

This won’t be as bad as many juniors like gulfstream and cappo are scared of. Calm down guys, you’ll retire a 787/350 captain. This is jump a bump in the road. Likely the first one for you since having graduated Seneca 2-3 years ago, and having the career handed to you on a gold platter. Learn from it so you can position yourselves better financially before the next down turn so you don’t need to come on here and argue amongst peasants and outing how poor you really are, which is hilarious and sad all at the same time, because you know, you’re an Air Canada pilot. Start acting with the leadership one expects out of the best pilots in the country. Like rudder.

Good luck!

Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.

Alti, I don’t think anyone who disagrees with me is a junior. But when I see replies like what I quoted, it gets pretty easy to see what their fears are based on where they sit career and seniority wise. As any pilot in this long enough understands the cyclical patterns of our business and doesn’t get bent out of shape over it.

Now to your point about scope. You’re right. AC pilots own the flying unlike transat pilots who do not own the flying. But transat pilots also do get remunerated if their flying is given elsewhere, and someone mentioned inability to have leased flying when members are on lay off.

Solid or not solid, those are the boundaries of the collective agreement.

While I don’t think transat pilots will eat air Canada pilots lunch, I do think every single transat pilot will be recalled to a job sooner than Ac pilots if leisure springs back. Which according to FL320 has already seen a surge in demand.

But I also think what’s important to note is that transat pilots also would be ac pilots, so you’d be correct in that transat pilots wouldn’t eat ac pilots lunch AS TS pilots. No, they’d eat their lunch as AC pilots under a fenced operation owned by AC, with recall rights to an operating certificate which current ac pilots wouldn’t have access to until the fences come down.

Neither side should be proud or strive for anyone’s lunch being eaten, but MR likely shifts flying to the outfit where his workforce and operating costs are cheaper unless a brand new cba is negotiated. Which based on your cargo outcome, I wouldn’t enlist much faith in acpa to negotiate anything worthwhile, especially while further divided with the integration of 700 odd ts pilots.

What’s the reality? Everyone will have a job, but likely at the expense of a down graded cba quality wise in exchange for the promise of “growth” blah blah blah to suave short term thinkers into thinking it’s a good deal cause you know, upgrades and widebodies. Which is like music to the ears of anyone who is currently stocking toilet paper at sobeys.

Retirements are coming, and TS was set to expand by 14% due to fatigue rules. Same sort of expansion also existed over at AC relatively. The reduced travel demand (immediate) will be matched by that in the next while.

Good luck guys!

I disagree that the company will be permitted to recall to TS and shift flying to TS while AC Pilots are on the street.

But you're right in your lack of faith in ACPA - at least as it exists today, and who runs the circus there. I wouldn't put anything past them in terms of the depth of damage and screw up they are likely to inflict during this acquisition.

Short term ideas are definitely what AC Pilots have been conditioned to... except for 10 year minimal gain turd deals that we are scared to wield the only upside of... the company can't force concessions when the contract is open, so we just sign MOAs and LOUs outside the contract...

[Fanblade]

It will be a few years before integration based on the AC CAIL merger.

-First a common employer declaration. Most likely this simply happens and isn’t opposed. If AC does oppose that becomes months of hearings.

- Next certification vote.

- Next seniority integration arbitration. Months just to get an arbitrator. Then months of hearings ( few days a month). Then months for the award to be released.

- Then an equipment bid.

In all that time AC and Transat will be recalling independently depending on need.

So 2023 ish? The majority of furloughs will probably have been recalled before integration. I think your fighting over a problem that doesn’t exist.

[GATRKGA]

Very civil reply. Except the las part where you cast aspersions assuming anyone that disagrees with you is a 3rd year professional pilot on the fast track out if college....

But, I'll tell you that AC Pilots won't be fenced off from our flying. And if that's the way the company visions it, it won't be for long once we win in scope arbitration. Because we own our flying.

Do Air Transat Pilots own all Transat AT flying? Because that's who Air Canada bought, a vacation seller with some plane leases, they didn't buy an airline. I seem to recall European operator wet leases were doing your flying only a year ago, also WestJet, CanJet, I don't know, maybe Flair or Enerjet too in recent years? Soon you'll see Transat Vacation packages sold with an AC crew up front also.

I wouldn't get used to the idea that you'll just eat ACPA's lunch and take all our flying behind your fence. There'll be a fence no doubt, but on both sides of it Air Canada Pilots own the flying.

Alti, I don’t think anyone who disagrees with me is a junior. But when I see replies like what I quoted, it gets pretty easy to see what their fears are based on where they sit career and seniority wise. As any pilot in this long enough understands the cyclical patterns of our business and doesn’t get bent out of shape over it.

Now to your point about scope. You’re right. AC pilots own the flying unlike transat pilots who do not own the flying. But transat pilots also do get remunerated if their flying is given elsewhere, and someone mentioned inability to have leased flying when members are on lay off.

Solid or not solid, those are the boundaries of the collective agreement.

While I don’t think transat pilots will eat air Canada pilots lunch, I do think every single transat pilot will be recalled to a job sooner than Ac pilots if leisure springs back. Which according to FL320 has already seen a surge in demand.

But I also think what’s important to note is that transat pilots also would be ac pilots, so you’d be correct in that transat pilots wouldn’t eat ac pilots lunch AS TS pilots. No, they’d eat their lunch as AC pilots under a fenced operation owned by AC, with recall rights to an operating certificate which current ac pilots wouldn’t have access to until the fences come down.

Neither side should be proud or strive for anyone’s lunch being eaten, but MR likely shifts flying to the outfit where his workforce and operating costs are cheaper unless a brand new cba is negotiated. Which based on your cargo outcome, I wouldn’t enlist much faith in acpa to negotiate anything worthwhile, especially while further divided with the integration of 700 odd ts pilots.

What’s the reality? Everyone will have a job, but likely at the expense of a down graded cba quality wise in exchange for the promise of “growth” blah blah blah to suave short term thinkers into thinking it’s a good deal cause you know, upgrades and widebodies. Which is like music to the ears of anyone who is currently stocking toilet paper at sobeys.

Retirements are coming, and TS was set to expand by 14% due to fatigue rules. Same sort of expansion also existed over at AC relatively. The reduced travel demand (immediate) will be matched by that in the next while.

Good luck guys!

I disagree that the company will be permitted to recall to TS and shift flying to TS while AC Pilots are on the street.

But you're right in your lack of faith in ACPA - at least as it exists today, and who runs the circus there. I wouldn't put anything past them in terms of the depth of damage and screw up they are likely to inflict during this acquisition.

Short term ideas are definitely what AC Pilots have been conditioned to... except for 10 year minimal gain turd deals that we are scared to wield the only upside of... the company can't force concessions when the contract is open, so we just sign MOAs and LOUs outside the contract...

But alti, if ts pilots must be acpa pilots, wouldn’t that mean any fence would disallow any acpa pilot outside the fence from being recalled into the fence until the fence has come down?

The way I see it is that if you’re a ts pilot turned into acpa pilot, you’re still fenced. So any recall for this fenced acpa pilot would be to the fenced airline. If rowth occurs at the fenced airline, wouldn’t the fenced pilot get the recall to his fenced company even though an unfenced pilot is out of work?

Exact same thing if growth was at rouge, any fenced ts pilot would NOT get recalled into rouge because it’s outside his fence.

That’s where my concern is for ac pilots. They’re looking at it from the binoculars of “Ac flying is my flying” and they don’t see how the merged list means ts pilots are now in your circle, with fences, in an industry where leisure likely springs back faster.

None of this is a “win” by the way. Because whether we like it or not all ac and ts pilots are in this together regardless of whether they see it or not.

[Fanblade]

Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first.

This kind of thought pattern was widespread 20 years ago.

It depends what AC buys. They can just buy routes. They can buy just fins. They can buy just a name. They can buy just buildings. They can buy the whole company. Once they buy it they become responsible for all legal obligations pertaining to what they bought.

Fact is AC is buying the whole company. That means AC becomes responsible for all the legal obligations of having employees at Transat.

Put another way. Legally there will be no difference between an AC employee and a Transat employee.

[GATRKGA]

Rumblings of AC taking only the fins are not just rumblings. TS Employees and mechanics aren't needed and will only be considered once all mainline employees have been recalled first.

This kind of thought pattern was widespread 20 years ago.

It depends what AC buys. They can just buy routes. They can buy just fins. They can buy just a name. They can buy just buildings. They can buy the whole company. Once they buy it they become responsible for all legal obligations pertaining to what they bought.

Fact is AC is buying the whole company. That means AC becomes responsible for all the legal obligations of having employees at Transat.

Put another way. Legally there will be no difference between an AC employee and a Transat employee.

Exactly.

[Fanblade]

Alti, I don’t think anyone who disagrees with me is a junior. But when I see replies like what I quoted, it gets pretty easy to see what their fears are based on where they sit career and seniority wise. As any pilot in this long enough understands the cyclical patterns of our business and doesn’t get bent out of shape over it.

Now to your point about scope. You’re right. AC pilots own the flying unlike transat pilots who do not own the flying. But transat pilots also do get remunerated if their flying is given elsewhere, and someone mentioned inability to have leased flying when members are on lay off.

Solid or not solid, those are the boundaries of the collective agreement.

While I don’t think transat pilots will eat air Canada pilots lunch, I do think every single transat pilot will be recalled to a job sooner than Ac pilots if leisure springs back. Which according to FL320 has already seen a surge in demand.

But I also think what’s important to note is that transat pilots also would be ac pilots, so you’d be correct in that transat pilots wouldn’t eat ac pilots lunch AS TS pilots. No, they’d eat their lunch as AC pilots under a fenced operation owned by AC, with recall rights to an operating certificate which current ac pilots wouldn’t have access to until the fences come down.

Neither side should be proud or strive for anyone’s lunch being eaten, but MR likely shifts flying to the outfit where his workforce and operating costs are cheaper unless a brand new cba is negotiated. Which based on your cargo outcome, I wouldn’t enlist much faith in acpa to negotiate anything worthwhile, especially while further divided with the integration of 700 odd ts pilots.

What’s the reality? Everyone will have a job, but likely at the expense of a down graded cba quality wise in exchange for the promise of “growth” blah blah blah to suave short term thinkers into thinking it’s a good deal cause you know, upgrades and widebodies. Which is like music to the ears of anyone who is currently stocking toilet paper at sobeys.

Retirements are coming, and TS was set to expand by 14% due to fatigue rules. Same sort of expansion also existed over at AC relatively. The reduced travel demand (immediate) will be matched by that in the next while.

Good luck guys!

I disagree that the company will be permitted to recall to TS and shift flying to TS while AC Pilots are on the street.

But you're right in your lack of faith in ACPA - at least as it exists today, and who runs the circus there. I wouldn't put anything past them in terms of the depth of damage and screw up they are likely to inflict during this acquisition.

Short term ideas are definitely what AC Pilots have been conditioned to... except for 10 year minimal gain turd deals that we are scared to wield the only upside of... the company can't force concessions when the contract is open, so we just sign MOAs and LOUs outside the contract...

But alti, if ts pilots must be acpa pilots, wouldn’t that mean any fence would disallow any acpa pilot outside the fence from being recalled into the fence until the fence has come down?

The way I see it is that if you’re a ts pilot turned into acpa pilot, you’re still fenced. So any recall for this fenced acpa pilot would be to the fenced airline. If rowth occurs at the fenced airline, wouldn’t the fenced pilot get the recall to his fenced company even though an unfenced pilot is out of work?

Exact same thing if growth was at rouge, any fenced ts pilot would NOT get recalled into rouge because it’s outside his fence.

That’s where my concern is for ac pilots. They’re looking at it from the binoculars of “Ac flying is my flying” and they don’t see how the merged list means ts pilots are now in your circle, with fences, in an industry where leisure likely springs back faster.

None of this is a “win” by the way. Because whether we like it or not all ac and ts pilots are in this together regardless of whether they see it or not.

There were no fences on the AC/CAIL merger. They don’t work well as no one can see the future. Aircraft types change. Business strategy changes. We have history in Canada where fences went bad. The EPA merger into CP Air.

When we speak of fences today we mean no bump no flush. That means no one can ever bump someone out of a position. An opening needs to come available for someone to bid into. That open position though becomes fair game for anyone on the seniority list.

This facilitates recall based on seniority unless someone chooses to bypass.

[GATRKGA]

I disagree that the company will be permitted to recall to TS and shift flying to TS while AC Pilots are on the street.

But you're right in your lack of faith in ACPA - at least as it exists today, and who runs the circus there. I wouldn't put anything past them in terms of the depth of damage and screw up they are likely to inflict during this acquisition.

Short term ideas are definitely what AC Pilots have been conditioned to... except for 10 year minimal gain turd deals that we are scared to wield the only upside of... the company can't force concessions when the contract is open, so we just sign MOAs and LOUs outside the contract...

But alti, if ts pilots must be acpa pilots, wouldn’t that mean any fence would disallow any acpa pilot outside the fence from being recalled into the fence until the fence has come down?

The way I see it is that if you’re a ts pilot turned into acpa pilot, you’re still fenced. So any recall for this fenced acpa pilot would be to the fenced airline. If rowth occurs at the fenced airline, wouldn’t the fenced pilot get the recall to his fenced company even though an unfenced pilot is out of work?

Exact same thing if growth was at rouge, any fenced ts pilot would NOT get recalled into rouge because it’s outside his fence.

That’s where my concern is for ac pilots. They’re looking at it from the binoculars of “Ac flying is my flying” and they don’t see how the merged list means ts pilots are now in your circle, with fences, in an industry where leisure likely springs back faster.

None of this is a “win” by the way. Because whether we like it or not all ac and ts pilots are in this together regardless of whether they see it or not.

There were no fences on the AC/CAIL merger. They don’t work well as no one can see the future. Aircraft types change. Business strategy changes. We have history in Canada where fences went bad. The EPA merger into CP Air.

When we speak of fences today we mean no bump no flush. That means no one can ever bump someone out of a position. An opening needs to come available for someone to bid into.

True. But were there surpluses in that merger? I would imagine handling this merger would be different whereby you need fences to avoid major labour disruptions.

For example all ts pilots are on cews meaning they’re not laid off. They still hold their positions on an inactive basis.

The way the company sees it, why pay out severance when the government is paying the meagre payroll? Unlike AC, the company also doesn’t pay 100% of the benefits. So it’s no skin off their back to keep the employees on the cews as laying them off would be more expensive. Why would AC foot the bill for an expensive lay off when the same would apply to them when they take over the keys?

For those who likely will quote that Calin said an equal lay-off will occurs at transat, what’s that? 140 some pilots in 4800 at Ac? 3% of the ts pilots get laid off? So 679 get to stay on property out of 700 collecting cews?

Lol, what a mess

[Fanblade]

CEWS will be a distant memory when integration takes place.

The process is actually going to be quite predicable. Once we have a combined seniority list a normal bid will be run. In a normal bid no one can bump a junior person out of their position. There needs to be an opening. The left over openings go to those on furlough in order of seniority.

There is one positive in this quagmire of anxiety. Mergers almost always require right sizing/downsizing after integration. This merger was not going to be different. Once we integrated there would be a reduction bid. Happened on the AC/CAIL merger. Best case we might have gotten away with stagnation until staffing was right sized. But the reduction bid after the AC/CAIL merger was ugly.

You see arbitrators believe that the pain of integration should be felt evenly. They put together the list on the day before acquisition. Then let what happens, happen as the integrated company adjusts to its new staffing reality.

In our current case that won’t happen. The company, post Covid, will right size both operations individually from the outset. That in itself will probably get ugly but it will be before integration at least.

[GATRKGA]

CEWS will be a distant memory when integration takes place.

The process is actually going to be quite predicable. Once we have a combined seniority list a normal bid will be run. In a normal bid no one can bump a junior person out of their position. There needs to be an opening. The left over openings go to those on furlough in order of seniority.

There is one positive in this quagmire of anxiety. Mergers almost always require right sizing/downsizing after integration. This merger was not going to be different. Once we integrated there would be a reduction bid. Happened on the AC/CAIL merger. Best case we might have gotten away with stagnation until staffing was right sized. But a reduction bid and all the bumping associated was ugly.

In our current case that won’t happen. The company will right size both operations from the outset. That in itself will probably get ugly but it will be before integration at least.

So you’re proposing no fences, interesting. Let’s see I guess.

[Fanblade]

CEWS will be a distant memory when integration takes place.

The process is actually going to be quite predicable. Once we have a combined seniority list a normal bid will be run. In a normal bid no one can bump a junior person out of their position. There needs to be an opening. The left over openings go to those on furlough in order of seniority.

There is one positive in this quagmire of anxiety. Mergers almost always require right sizing/downsizing after integration. This merger was not going to be different. Once we integrated there would be a reduction bid. Happened on the AC/CAIL merger. Best case we might have gotten away with stagnation until staffing was right sized. But a reduction bid and all the bumping associated was ugly.

In our current case that won’t happen. The company will right size both operations from the outset. That in itself will probably get ugly but it will be before integration at least.

So you’re proposing no fences, interesting. Let’s see I guess.

The arbitrator will put in a No bump no flush statement. That is considered a fence. A very short lived fence. But still a fence.

The arbitrator will seek to make sure that no matter what happens after integration, that seniority is respected. If work moves people in seniority will follow. This where the EPA/CP merger went off the rails. CP pilots were fenced off the Halifax base in exchange for EPA pilots getting lower overall system seniority. Then CP closed the Halifax base post merger. Ouch.

For example it sounds like there is a possibility AC may have multiple operating certificates coming out of this. AC (mainline) Rouge (ULCC) Cargo, Transat (Liesure)

After integration we will all be able to bid into (openings only) in all of them.

[Fanblade]

True. But were there surpluses in that merger? I would imagine handling this merger would be different whereby you need fences to avoid major labour disruptions.

Funny thing is the merger and the AC/CAIL merger are looking very similar.

At first AC said that there would be no shrinkage during consolidation. The arbitrator didn’t believe that though stating in his report that he thought some consolidation was inevitable.

Then 911.

Then SARS.

Then CCAA and about a 20% reduction in pilot spots later reduced to about 15%.

That reduction bid saw massive reductions particularly on the YVR base which had the most overlap. To give you the magnitude of the reduction. Prior to the bid there were over 1100 pilots on the YVR/YEG base. Post bid. 600 and something. It was ugly ugly ugly.

Think about those numbers. The right sizing of the YVR base was a larger reduction than system wide layoffs. A lot of uhauls heading east.

But again the rationalization is this. After integration there is no longer us and them. Positive or negative it impacts everyone equally.

There is no attempt to protect a pre merger expectation. That expectation vaporized on acquisition. As much as people may try to rationalize why a pre merger expectation should be protected, it won’t. Not even remotely on the mind of an arbitrator.

First fact. We will be integrated.

Second fact. Pre merger expectations no longer exist.

Third fact. The company will take its staffing and adjust it to its go forward strategy. We will all take the ups and downs of that strategy as an integrated group.

Forth fact. It’s all completely out of our control.

Fifth fact. This will take a few years to actually see the final result.

Six fact. Protect your mental health. There is nothing you can do. No one is going to die. In the end it will get better. Go play with your kids.

[FL-280]

Interesting discussion so far. I believe all pilots are coming to their sense's on the AC side, personally, I believe the merge will go through. I want one list, scope is number one and should be fought for : tooth and nail.

The real question is : how much are TS pilots willing to give up? The gain of stability and pay is huge in itself. I am not advocating for BOTL (and this is me coming to my sense's) so TS pilots should not be advocating for DOH.

Almost 1.5 years of thought into this and I strongly believe this merge will look like th AC / CAIL merge. Some sort of ratio, decided by an arbitrator will be put in place. In my view, TS pilots will lose between 4-6 years of seniority. Anything less than 4 years would be highway robbery.

Flame away at me if you want, but this will more or less look like the reality : 1 list, no bump and flush, all ts pilots get a number but lose 4 - 6 years.

Once this is over, it's over, all must accept the outcome. Until then, both groups are foes, unfortunetely.

[Fanblade]

Interesting discussion so far. I believe all pilots are coming to their sense's on the AC side, personally, I believe the merge will go through. I want one list, scope is number one and should be fought for : tooth and nail.

The real question is : how much are TS pilots willing to give up? The gain of stability and pay is huge in itself. I am not advocating for BOTL (and this is me coming to my sense's) so TS pilots should not be advocating for DOH.

Gonna have to add another fact. Numero 7. It doesn’t matter what AC pilots think. So who cares what they think. It doesn’t matter what Transat pilots think. So who cares what they think. It doesn’t matter what ACPA thinks. So who cares what they think. ALPA the same. Actually a note of caution here. You have to understand your representatives are going to try and sell their version of how they think this should go. Careful buying into it. They can’t whisper in your year “ yeah it’s a long shot but we are going to try anyway”. That will be the truth, but you will never hear it.

The only thing that matters is what the arbitrator thinks. To understand how the arbitrator is going to think go read arbitrations.

The banter here is a waste of time. It will simply stir up anxiety, resentment and anger.

If someone wants to do something constructive? Start a discussion on real arbitration awards. Discuss the thought process of the arbitrator in coming to the conclusions he/ she made.

[FL-280]

Yes, you are correct. It's out of our control and doesn't matter what we, as individuals, think.
The arbitrator will have all the facts and will act with those facts in mind. I still believe that we will see something like my last comment.
The only certainty is uncertainty.

On a more positive note, the industry has a hint of light at the end of the tunnel. H2 2021 we can expect recalls starting with most recalls going ou in 2022. Full list integration I dont even see happening before 2023

[L39Guy]

This kind of thought pattern was widespread 20 years ago.

It depends what AC buys. They can just buy routes. They can buy just fins. They can buy just a name. They can buy just buildings. They can buy the whole company. Once they buy it they become responsible for all legal obligations pertaining to what they bought.

Fact is AC is buying the whole company. That means AC becomes responsible for all the legal obligations of having employees at Transat.

Put another way. Legally there will be no difference between an AC employee and a Transat employee.

Precisely, it is called "Follow the Work". Airplanes come and go, routes open and close, etc. but labour follows is the work.

[L39Guy]

Having been through a few mergers, my advice is for the various unions (ACPA and ALPA) to argue the best case they can but do not personalize it and always bear in mind that someday the individuals from both airlines will be sharing crew rooms, flight decks, hotel bars, etc. together so it behooves everyone to be mindful of this and treat your fellow professionals as professionals.

[pigboat]

Fanblade listed the real and true... SIX facts. Read them and save yourself a great deal of personal grief and stress.

He nailed it as true and cold as this or any merger goes. Well stated.

[schnitzel2k3]

True. But were there surpluses in that merger? I would imagine handling this merger would be different whereby you need fences to avoid major labour disruptions.

Funny thing is the merger and the AC/CAIL merger are looking very similar.

At first AC said that there would be no shrinkage during consolidation. The arbitrator didn’t believe that though stating in his report that he thought some consolidation was inevitable.

Then 911.

Then SARS.

Then CCAA and about a 20% reduction in pilot spots later reduced to about 15%.

That reduction bid saw massive reductions particularly on the YVR base which had the most overlap. To give you the magnitude of the reduction. Prior to the bid there were over 1100 pilots on the YVR/YEG base. Post bid. 600 and something. It was ugly ugly ugly.

Think about those numbers. The right sizing of the YVR base was a larger reduction than system wide layoffs. A lot of uhauls heading east.

But again the rationalization is this. After integration there is no longer us and them. Positive or negative it impacts everyone equally.

There is no attempt to protect a pre merger expectation. That expectation vaporized on acquisition. As much as people may try to rationalize why a pre merger expectation should be protected, it won’t. Not even remotely on the mind of an arbitrator.

First fact. We will be integrated.

Second fact. Pre merger expectations no longer exist.

Third fact. The company will take its staffing and adjust it to its go forward strategy. We will all take the ups and downs of that strategy as an integrated group.

Forth fact. It’s all completely out of our control.

Fifth fact. This will take a few years to actually see the final result.

Six fact. Protect your mental health. There is nothing you can do. No one is going to die. In the end it will get better. Go play with your kids.

Only fact that works for everyone nowadays.