Pilot Count

[Transition9er2]

Does anyone know the breakdown of surplus and furloughed pilots?

I wanna say there’s a total of 600 pilots currently NOT flying from the overall pilot list. Am I close or way off?

T

[throwaway123]

600 furloughed. Not on CEWS, fully laid off.

A bit under 200 were additional "surplus" on top of the 600 furloughed since May 2020 but are now back on the list as active since the latest bid this week.

Total active pilots is around 3600, but in reality we only need probably 30% of that to operate the amount of flying being done.

[Transition9er2]

Thanks Throwaway.

So it was more like 800 pilots not working before the surplus group got recalled... total now laid off/inactive/furloughed is 600.

What was the difference between furloughed and surplus? Seems like the exact same thing, just a different name for the seniority level.

T

[throwaway123]

Surplus pilots were still working. Furlough is furlough. Surplus just means they could be laid off at any time but they were still active and flying.

[Curiousflyer]

Thanks Throwaway.

So it was more like 800 pilots not working before the surplus group got recalled... total now laid off/inactive/furloughed is 600.

What was the difference between furloughed and surplus? Seems like the exact same thing, just a different name for the seniority level.

T

Surplus is after an equipment bid, there are too many pilots to fill the required positions, so anyone excess is listed as surplus. It is the first step toward furlough, but until you are furloughed you retain all the privileges as someone who ‘held a position’ on the equipment bid. All of the surplus pilots are active and have been flying since listed surplus.
Now those surplus pilots have a new position but await training, while still being active on their current position.
Hope that clarifies, any other questions?

[NotDirty!]

Surplus pilots were still working. Furlough is furlough. Surplus just means they could be laid off at any time but they were still active and flying.

Surplus pilots could not take part in the bid in which they were declared surplus, but could continue in their qualified position until either furloughed or returned to active status. The complication was for any surplus pilots whose qualified positions were on the EMJ or B767, so they no longer had a machine to fly, and because they couldn’t hold a position on the bid, they couldn’t bid a new position. So they continued to get paid the minimum guarantee, but were in limbo.

[Transition9er2]

Thanks everyone.

So essentially by moving all surplus pilots back to active status is really not a big deal in-terms of seeing a shift to better days?

With Jazz recalling 104 pilots back, now hearing AC is bringing back all surplus pilots made me think things were maybe turning a corner... based on what I’m reading above it seems that’s not entirely the case.

Any callback in general is amazing news... even if it’s small numbers.

T

[Curiousflyer]

Thanks everyone.

So essentially by moving all surplus pilots back to active status is really not a big deal in-terms of seeing a shift to better days?

Your assumption is correct. It’s also worth noting that the return to active for surplus pilots, was I initiated by the union when negotiating the latest AIP and not driven by the company for a training plan.

So while I’m hopeful for a quick bounce back for summer travel at the end of the day this wasn’t done because AC has determined a need for these pilots this summer.

[simply_no_one]

Thanks everyone.

So essentially by moving all surplus pilots back to active status is really not a big deal in-terms of seeing a shift to better days?

Your assumption is correct. It’s also worth noting that the return to active for surplus pilots, was I initiated by the union when negotiating the latest AIP and not driven by the company for a training plan.

So while I’m hopeful for a quick bounce back for summer travel at the end of the day this wasn’t done because AC has determined a need for these pilots this summer.

Making surplus rejoining active contingent on a yes vote was pretty much clear vote buying. Let's be honest. It was valuable to ACPA and the company to get another 200 votes to pass this garbage AIP. So don't think it doesn't benefit the company.

[200Above]

Making surplus rejoining active contingent on a yes vote was pretty much clear vote buying. Let's be honest. It was valuable to ACPA and the company to get another 200 votes to pass this garbage AIP. So don't think it doesn't benefit the company.

Plus the 600 that had no vote/say in recent elections either.

Edit: quote

[simply_no_one]

Making surplus rejoining active contingent on a yes vote was pretty much clear vote buying. Let's be honest. It was valuable to ACPA and the company to get another 200 votes to pass this garbage AIP. So don't think it doesn't benefit the company.

Plus the 600 that had no vote/say in recent elections either.

Edit: quote

Yet they will be the ones who any contract changes will effect for the longest time.

I wonder if they feel like they are being at all represented by their union. Although I imagine ACPA doesn't consider them their constituents since they aren't paying dues and therefore don't need to represent them.

ACPA cared a lot more about the 240 odd pilots back in the early 2000s than they care about 600 now.

Although I imagine that has a lot more to do with the man at the head of the table than anyone else, as the vibe among the pilot group seems to suggest many think we should be doing everything to protect them right now. Including putting the 4 year flat pay as the number one issue once things start returning to normal. Try to recoup at least a little bit for the furloughs that they've lost in YOS, pay and pension.

Sad.

[200Above]

I'll be on flat pay till ~2025. Super excited.

[simply_no_one]

I'll be on flat pay till ~2025. Super excited.

I'm sorry man. Honestly. It's bs.

[alkaseltzer]

I wonder if they feel like they are being at all represented by their union. Although I imagine ACPA doesn't consider them their constituents since they aren't paying dues and therefore don't need to represent them.

- MM's son is on furlough; 150ish from the bottom? Also throw in some management's progeny, also on furlough.

Do the furloughed pilots really need to pay dues to be represented when there are family bloodlines to salvage? I'm pretty sure they (ACPA/Management) have a better handle on affairs.

You want to compare it to something? How about the Royal Family? They're doing great aren't they?

The fact that there are bloodlines to preserve, so to speak, works way better for me than Amazon.ca advertising they will donate to a charity, "at no cost to me".

Transition9er2, yes, it's not a big deal as yet, in terms of "seeing a shift to better days". It's publicly known, there is a 3 year strategy, a conscious decision to shrink the company for 3 years. You can't just rebound from that overnight, in the absence of government help. I'm not saying anything groundbreaking, just take a look around.

Take a look at this interview, at 24:47m, watch for a few minutes. I would find it hard to believe that Mike Rousseau (new CEO) would deviate significantly from this strategy, unless something material changes:

https://youtu.be/PX_GmrFt7q4?t=1487

Calin says, "we can't snap back" like that.

Not my words, his.

[furloughedAC]

Thanks Throwaway.

So it was more like 800 pilots not working before the surplus group got recalled... total now laid off/inactive/furloughed is 600.

What was the difference between furloughed and surplus? Seems like the exact same thing, just a different name for the seniority level.

T

As one of the furloughed the difference is a paycheck and benefits in the short term, as well as 3.5 years of flat pay upon return. Long term it's however many years this furlough lasts, off my end of career top pay. I've still got a good while but for some of my older new hire colleagues that were fortunate enough to find a flying job elsewhere, there will come a point when returning to AC and taking a massive pay cut for the next three + years (again) will not make sense.

[200Above]

I got lucky and I'm making 2.5X my AC salary. I would defer the recall if they called me today. My medical lapsed, no worrying about sim, no commuting...

That's not the same as saying I'd quit and give up my number, but I'm sure there's others that have found a suitable alternative and are in the same boat.

Sink or swim.

[flyingcanuck]

I got lucky and I'm making 2.5X my AC salary. I would defer the recall if they called me today. My medical lapsed, no worrying about sim, no commuting...

That's not the same as saying I'd quit and give up my number, but I'm sure there's others that have found a suitable alternative and are in the same boat.

Sink or swim.

doing what? good for you!

[200Above]

doing what? good for you!

Drone/tech start up. Just got lucky, anyone with our aviation experience could do it.

[Ruddervator]

Nice! What kind of gear are you using? I've been practicing with a Mavic Mini since last fall, and have the basic license. It's good to know there's some money in this. I'm also part of the 600.