No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[Hot Wings]

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Having done "grad school" for 4 yrs then getting the Jazz APP. You're incorrect. While my pay was not great in years 1-3 at Jazz, I was about 3 ground schools from no layoff based on my DOH there. Secondly, as someone who did a degree separate from Aviation, no absolutely not 60k. It's more like a crappy internship at some downtown office building until you impress the boss and he/she gives you the position you went to school for.

Staying at Jazz permanently does not mean poverty. It's a good contract with reasonable pay after year 4 as an FO up to maximum as a Captain. The contract rewards longevity. Please stop speaking on numbers and contractual stuff that you cannot reference because you're still at the "learning stage" of your aviation career (whatever that might be at this point).

Idk why you waste your time hear on an aviation careers section of a 705 carrier if your mind is made up about not ever working commercially. Most don't share your viewpoint (look at flight school enrollment numbers).

final point "We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz." You have no evidence to back that up. All of their workforce is back as of Aug 29th. Beyond that I don't expect it to be long before the next wave of hiring will take place. Again my point is, you're nothing but arbitrary in this discussion. There's nothing concrete with the "numbers" you push.

Be honest, how typical is 3 years? I know a ton of people who've been working about that long before the pandemic and they still didn't get the call from Jazz/WEN.

Jazz captain pay is really good! BUT the majority of people try to upgrade to mainline, based on what I feel is a typical length of time to get there, there is a good chance you'd be really junior when the 10 year aviation event hits.

I still know a lot of people trying to get into the industry so I find it interesting to watch. If for some reason I suddenly hate my job or the flying career becomes more appealing I'd consider jumping back into the grind.

I've spoken to some people at Jazz and Encore and they feel 5-6 years is fairly realistic if your instructing time is single engine VFR, especially if you don't want to go up north. I know my numbers aren't concrete but 1. we're both anonymous idiots arguing 2. Timing and who you know is such a big deal in this industry. I doubt anyone could give an actual concrete timeline

It seems to me that you’ll never find the right time to convince yourself to jump in. By the time things are “good enough”, you’ll be well behind the 8-ball.

[Fanblade]

And for the record, I don't think profit sharing should be included in pay rate comparisons. If the profit share is excluded they're 31% behind.

Lol.

What’s wrong can’t spend it the same? The recovery of wages south of the boarder has been contingent on those massive profit sharing cheques.

But hey if you get to set the ground rules and different forms of compensation don’t count?

I’m at a loss then.

Only a pilot thinks bonuses are not compensation and working more is a raise.

Don’t forget those were 2015 wages you were quoting. 30% raise in 2017-19. It’s these raises that blew our doors off.

And yes it’s those wage increases post 2017 plus the bonus that has caught them up. Or at least that is what Delta told their pilots.

I have the tendency to believe what ALPA says.

You can spin this anyway you like. Fact remains we have never been as far behind our American counterparts as we are today when it comes to compensation.

And how do you respond to this reality? 10% off cargo.

[Montroyal]

How do ACPA negotiated agreements compare with ANY legacy carrier in regards to:

- Full credit DHs
- Reserve rules
- Vacation
- Company pension contributions
- Daily guarantees
- Augmentation
- Pairing creation
- Trip trading
- Profit sharing (if this is allowed)
- Flying cargo
- Securing pay for furloughs

[a220hereicome]

Fanblade.

I'm trying really hard here, but this inflation thing...

You posted a very legit contract comparison from Delta Airlines that showed a 2003 pay rate for their highest paid WB CA of $306/hr.

In 2021, if they had kept up with inflation like you say they did, that rate would be $455/hr. They're nowhere near that. The posted rate on Airline Pilot Central (if you have a better source, please provide) currently shows the highest WB CA rate at Delta this year is $354/hr. That isn't even close to $455.

If you can show me some legit document from Delta or ALPA that refutes that, then I'll recant.

As for profit share... oh yes, you can spend it - when you get it. How does profit share look for 2020, 2021, and 2022? And profit share doesn't compound like a pay raise does. So I don't think a union, ACPA, ALPA, whoever, should include it in pay rate comparisons. Compare profit share or bonus schemes separately if you like. But don't include it in pay.

I think you're missing an important point here, though. I agree with you. We make far less than our American counterparts. But we've always made considerably less. And this is no different than most professions in Canada and the US.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade.

I'm trying really hard here, but this inflation thing...

You posted a very legit contract comparison from Delta Airlines that showed a 2003 pay rate for their highest paid WB CA of $306/hr.

In 2021, if they had kept up with inflation like you say they did, that rate would be $455/hr. They're nowhere near that. The posted rate on Airline Pilot Central (if you have a better source, please provide) currently shows the highest WB CA rate at Delta this year is $354/hr. That isn't even close to $455.

If you can show me some legit document from Delta or ALPA that refutes that, then I'll recant.

As for profit share... oh yes, you can spend it - when you get it. How does profit share look for 2020, 2021, and 2022? And profit share doesn't compound like a pay raise does. So I don't think a union, ACPA, ALPA, whoever, should include it in pay rate comparisons. Compare profit share or bonus schemes separately if you like. But don't include it in pay.

I think you're missing an important point here, though. I agree with you. We make far less than our American counterparts. But we've always made considerably less. And this is no different than most professions in Canada and the US.

I keep throwing 306 into different US inflation calculators. Yes many are .gov.

I get numbers ranging this time from 435 -455 for 2021. Why I have no idea. State maybe? Different basket of goods in differencing places? Not sure.

Don't have a current Delta contract but I did find a United one.

369 plus bonus.

I'm assuming you know how large those bonuses have been.

Yes not every year is boon.

I switched to a current 2021 wage at United for you, to stop the inflation target overstate. You have been taking a 2003 number, inflation adjusting it to 2021 and then comparing it to a 2019 wage. That is overstating the inflation target. Inflation adjusting 306 to 2019 is roughly 425-428 ish.

Then you have chosen the highest calculator. Again no idea why they differ.

Also make sure you make the month the same. If you don’t you will add another 8 months and overstate it further.

I stand by what Delta told their pilots. Pre bankruptcy compensation achieved. Maybe there is more to that statement than I realize. Nevertheless it looks darn close if you include bonus to me.

[Fanblade]

Figured out the inflation calculator problem. US inflation is running between 4 and 5% in 2021. Some calculators tell you, while others don’t that the calculation is not Jan 1 to Jan 1. It’s to this year on the last date of data. In our case today July 31, 2021.

In other words the calculator is adding, in some cases, 7 months of inflation at nearly 5% to what would normally be expected. Producing a $20/ hour increase on some calculators.

Good demo of how vicious inflation can be.

[altiplano]

Don't forget 100% employer payed 18% pension contribution they can do what they like with... and the pilots own it, or their estate does.

We've gone the other way... 7.5% out of our wages... currently 0% employer paid... and we don't own the money... in fact he corporation has monetized it for themselves!

[a220hereicome]

Don't forget 100% employer payed 18% pension contribution they can do what they like with... and the pilots own it, or their estate does.

We've gone the other way... 7.5% out of our wages... currently 0% employer paid... and we don't own the money... in fact he corporation has monetized it for themselves!

I thought it was 16%. Anyways.

A little more to that story. I agree with you, their DC plan is very generous, probably the best I've seen. They bought it the hard way.

In the Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2003 Delta terminated the DB plan and pilots got about 25 cents on the dollar. Billions in owed pension benefits went up in smoke. If you were approaching retirement and expecting $100 000/year, that was cut to $25K, and by the way you can't work past age 60 next year. I don't know how you recover from that.

The initial company contribution to the DC plan was closer to 8% or 9%, and the pilots managed to raise that over ten years and a few rounds of bargaining to 16%. A job well done for sure, hats off to them.

I'm guessing the perspective on that whole evolution depends on which demographic you talk to.

[lownslow]

2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

I don’t have time or interest in figuring out where you are in a flying career but I’m going to assume you’re not at any stages quoted above. If you are, then you’re either an idiot or a liar because that scenario you posted hasn’t been true for a single day in the last ten years. Not a single part of it.

[newlygrounded]

2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

I don’t have time or interest in figuring out where you are in a flying career but I’m going to assume you’re not at any stages quoted above. If you are, then you’re either an idiot or a liar because that scenario you posted hasn’t been true for a single day in the last ten years. Not a single part of it.

Would you like to talk to MULTIPLE instructors I know in step 1?

[Hot Wings]

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Who the f*ck goes from two years of instructing to a year of “pilot in waiting” in the North? No one I’ve ever met in ten years…

[newlygrounded]

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Who the f*ck goes from two years of instructing to a year of “pilot in waiting” in the North? No one I’ve ever met in ten years…

I've talked to a few, in a city with a certain yellow... knife

[lownslow]

2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

I don’t have time or interest in figuring out where you are in a flying career but I’m going to assume you’re not at any stages quoted above. If you are, then you’re either an idiot or a liar because that scenario you posted hasn’t been true for a single day in the last ten years. Not a single part of it.

Would you like to talk to MULTIPLE instructors I know in step 1?

No, thank you. If that’s their future they describe in certainty they sound like they’re not worth my time. I bet they’ll be fun in an emergency too.

Here’s the thing: they’re at Step 1 of your (and their?) imaginary dismal future. Literally every other step is hypothetical at this point. Your experience is invalid if you haven’t actually experienced it. I’m really trying not to respond to these threads but it f*cking blows my mind that this is such a poorly understood concept.

[newlygrounded]

I don’t have time or interest in figuring out where you are in a flying career but I’m going to assume you’re not at any stages quoted above. If you are, then you’re either an idiot or a liar because that scenario you posted hasn’t been true for a single day in the last ten years. Not a single part of it.

Would you like to talk to MULTIPLE instructors I know in step 1?

No, thank you. If that’s their future they describe in certainty they sound like they’re not worth my time. I bet they’ll be fun in an emergency too.

Here’s the thing: they’re at Step 1 of your (and their?) imaginary dismal future. Literally every other step is hypothetical at this point. Your experience is invalid if you haven’t actually experienced it. I’m really trying not to respond to these threads but it f*cking blows my mind that this is such a poorly understood concept.

Honestly the ego's here are hilarious. You're moving goal posts buddy. First it's NOBODY TAKES 2 YEARS TO A 703/705, then you realize how everyone's career progress varies and now you're back pedaling.

[lownslow]

Who, me? Do you have quotes to back that up or are you just trying to read between lines you made up, again?

Anyways this back-and-forth has nothing to do with the subject of six hundred(?) AC pilots waiting for a recall so I’m done responding here out of respect for those that this actually immediately matters to. If you wanna keep going either start a more appropriate thread or PM me.

[QKZXKV]

I don’t have time or interest in figuring out where you are in a flying career but I’m going to assume you’re not at any stages quoted above. If you are, then you’re either an idiot or a liar because that scenario you posted hasn’t been true for a single day in the last ten years. Not a single part of it.

Would you like to talk to MULTIPLE instructors I know in step 1?

No, thank you. If that’s their future they describe in certainty they sound like they’re not worth my time. I bet they’ll be fun in an emergency too.

Here’s the thing: they’re at Step 1 of your (and their?) imaginary dismal future. Literally every other step is hypothetical at this point. Your experience is invalid if you haven’t actually experienced it. I’m really trying not to respond to these threads but it f*cking blows my mind that this is such a poorly understood concept.

Nail on the head!

Now as you said, let's get back to the important issue which is not some PPL student with a fallacious outlook. There's a lot of people wanting to discuss their path forward at AC. They're the important ones.

[Dias]

The company has approved vacation buybacks for the 777 for the September 2021 block month. All furloughed pilots will need to be recalled for this to happen under the contract. Unless ACPA gives more concessions.

[Transition9er2]

The company has approved vacation buybacks for the 777 for the September 2021 block month. All furloughed pilots will need to be recalled for this to happen under the contract. Unless ACPA gives more concessions.

****, is the full furlough list recall piece just an opinion, or is it fact as per the contract?

T

[Fanblade]

The company has approved vacation buybacks for the 777 for the September 2021 block month. All furloughed pilots will need to be recalled for this to happen under the contract. Unless ACPA gives more concessions.

****, is the full furlough list recall piece just an opinion, or is it fact as per the contract?

T

No vacation buy backs while furloughs exist is the contract wording.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

First a grievance would need to be filed.

But the way ACPA should handle this is to demand 100% recalls. I don't see any other solution as this article is in the CA to protect furloughed pilots.