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 Post subject: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:34 am 
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U.S. Department of Transportation Reverses Bush-Era Decision on Cabotage
ALPA scores advocacy hat trick, protects your flying
August 12, 2009



After months of ALPA’s efforts in lobbying and educating U.S. regulators about the negative effect of cabotage, the Department of Transportation on Monday reversed a decision made last year by the Bush administration that allowed a series of charter flights by Air Canada to provide transportation for the National Hockey League’s Boston Bruins during the 2008–2009 season. That decision opened the door to additional contracts the carrier has secured since with the Milwaukee Bucks and the St. Louis Blues.

“When it comes to fighting cabotage, ALPA scored a hat trick with this DOT decision,” said Capt. Paul Rice, ALPA’s first vice president. “After basically getting stonewalled by the Bush administration, we kept in the game by engaging the new administration on this issue, and working with the AFL-CIO and the TTD, as well as the major U.S. airline trade associations—ATA and NACA—to put a stop to this blatant violation of the U.S. code.”

The department’s investigation into this matter found that Air Canada carried cabotage traffic on these charter operations, concluding that in light of “the inherently variable nature of a sports team’s personnel during a season, there appears to be no practical means to ensure that there would not be carriage of U.S. domestic-only traffic during any season-long contract.” The letter, which DOT sent to Air Canada’s regulatory lawyer on Monday, went on to state: “We do not see any way in which Air Canada can continue to market and operate season-long charter contracts in the future for sports teams,” and advises the carrier “to take steps to cancel any such current contracts.”

ALPA began to work on overturning DOT’s decision to permit Air Canada to carry the Bruins immediately after the department issued it last year. ALPA then teamed up with industry partners to build the argument for the DOT that the charter flights—which at one point included 18 consecutive segments between U.S. cities over a two month period—directly violated U.S. Code Title 49. The Association also engaged congressmen, including Rep. James Oberstar (D-Minn.), who urged the DOT to revisit its decision on this matter.

“ALPA brought it to the Obama administration’s attention, and the DOT started an investigation,” Rice said. “While the investigation is still under way, this letter proves that we were right. It shows how your union protects your flying and works to reverse bad decisions that could set devastating precedents for undermining laws that every country and every airline should adhere to and respect.”

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:52 am 
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“ALPA brought it to the Obama administration’s attention, and the DOT started an investigation,” Rice said. “While the investigation is still under way, this letter proves that we were right. It shows how your union protects your flying and works to reverse bad decisions that could set devastating precedents for undermining laws that every country and every airline should adhere to and respect.”

I wonder if ALPA would have done this if AC was represented by ALPA. Anyway, I actually was wondering how we were getting away with this but sure didn't think it required ALPA to get involved.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:50 pm 
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a hint of irony (but not really) since ALPA represents Air Canada Jazz pilots.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:04 pm 
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Isn't ALPA the biggest representative of airline Pilots in the US? Not surprising they are protecting their "turf".

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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:10 pm 
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For what it's worth, I would doubt very much that any of the Jazz guys, myself included, support our union going after our biggest customer like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Guess that posting for a ramp lead to travel with the team will be coming down shortly.

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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:49 am 
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I'm sure we'd complain too if an American airline was doing point to point within Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:45 pm 
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teacher wrote:
I'm sure we'd complain too if an American airline was doing point to point within Canada.



Absolutely. ACPA has apparently agreed to support the company with lobbying in Ottawa. This does not exactly sit well with me because ALPA is only trying to protect the flying within it's borders and rightfully so IMO. I would rather see a unified stand by pilots on both sides of the border against foreign airlines flying point to point.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:27 pm 
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teacher wrote:
I'm sure we'd complain too if an American airline was doing point to point within Canada.


Scheduled, yes. Charter ops for sports teams, not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:28 am 
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The same rules still apply. Charter or Sched. You wouldn't want US charter companies coming up here doing our oil patch work I'm sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:05 pm 
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teacher wrote:
The same rules still apply. Charter or Sched. You wouldn't want US charter companies coming up here doing our oil patch work I'm sure.


If a private business wants to hire a firm outside its country to run charter flights because that firm made the best/cheapest/whatever reason have you offer, than why should a government get in the way?


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:48 pm 
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If a private business wants to hire a firm outside its country to run charter flights because that firm made the best/cheapest/whatever reason have you offer, than why should a government get in the way?[/quote]

:shock:

Because of the vast difference in economies, currencies and safety and work standards? Do I understand that you feel that if a Chinese, Turkmenistanian, Dogcrapistan or Russian airline could show up with 18 duty hour crews and offer flights dirt cheap since their crews are earning $73 dollars a month, that should be ok here? We would all be put out of work by the lowest bidders who pay bags of rice or nothing and have no safety standards. Governments have a duty to help us protect our work, wage standards and way of life. They are our elected representatives...we the taxpayers pay them to "get in the way"!



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:22 am 
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disco wrote:
Because of the vast difference in economies, currencies and safety and work standards? Do I understand that you feel that if a Chinese, Turkmenistanian, Dogcrapistan or Russian airline could show up with 18 duty hour crews and offer flights dirt cheap since their crews are earning $73 dollars a month, that should be ok here?


Yes. That is exactly what I mean. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:49 am 
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I read somewhere else that the Toronto Blue Jay's use a US company to charter them selfs around. If this is the case I truly hope that they are forced to take a Canadian company starting next year. Or will Canada simply bend over backwards and take it up the ass like so many times before...


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:52 am 
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The problem with JETZ was a Canadian airline operating on USA point to point flights. The Jays are all transborder flights, unless the Expos are making a comeback...


Last edited by SMP on Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:55 am 
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The difference is that the Blue Jays don't do any point to point in Canada.

**The above post wasn't there when I posted this, honest.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:31 am 
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I understand that argument, however when say the Vancouver Canucks fly from San Jose, Denver, Dallas, St. Louis, New York then Montreal would that not be Cabotage as well? Sure the Canucks at some point fly Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton back home but they also fly direct non-stop US to US flights. So where do we draw the line? Just because the team "at some point during the season" fly's within Canada they should be allowed to use AC Jetz? The Raptors (similar to the Blue Jay's) will never have a domestic flight within our borders, however they use Jetz.

How about when U2 charted Jetz for their Vertigo tour. Many of those flights would have been US-US flights. They were allowed to use Jetz. What would happen if a US city where to get a CFL team (hypothetically speaking) and where to charter Jetz to do their flying? All points would be either Can-Can or US-Can, Can-US I think the ALPA would put up a stink for that too...



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:49 am 
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ZBBYLW wrote:
I understand that argument, however when say the Vancouver Canucks fly from San Jose, Denver, Dallas, St. Louis, New York then Montreal would that not be Cabotage as well? Sure the Canucks at some point fly Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton back home but they also fly direct non-stop US to US flights. So where do we draw the line? Just because the team "at some point during the season" fly's within Canada they should be allowed to use AC Jetz? The Raptors (similar to the Blue Jay's) will never have a domestic flight within our borders, however they use Jetz.

How about when U2 charted Jetz for their Vertigo tour. Many of those flights would have been US-US flights. They were allowed to use Jetz. What would happen if a US city where to get a CFL team (hypothetically speaking) and where to charter Jetz to do their flying? All points would be either Can-Can or US-Can, Can-US I think the ALPA would put up a stink for that too...


The point is, none of the flights you talked about carried US passengers! The problem is when they fly the Bruins from BOS to LAX. It would be the same as Miami Air flying the Habs from YUL-YYC.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:08 am 
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When the ice road had a bad year and one diamond mine in particualr needed some freight in a hurry, notice how quick a russian company was given approval to operate in Canada.

Granted some of that freight was very specialized and needed an MI-26 to be moved, but the stuff that dirty old antonov was hauling around? Not so much...



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:33 am 
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Donald wrote:
When the ice road had a bad year and one diamond mine in particualr needed some freight in a hurry, notice how quick a russian company was given approval to operate in Canada.

Granted some of that freight was very specialized and needed an MI-26 to be moved, but the stuff that dirty old antonov was hauling around? Not so much...


Which company in Canada had a chopper big enough to do the work? Not really the same.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:47 am 
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This is obviously a touchy subject and open to different interpretation. IMO, as I stated above, if the US government wants to get involved and keep it political, I'm ok with it. However, ALPA represents many airlines in Canada as well. This is definitely conflict of interest and if I were represented by ALPA in Canada, I would be fuming right now and on the phone with the boys down south asking them WTF? It just happened to deal with AC but this also affects Jazz, 7F, Canjet ect... If you want to be an international organization you better represent internationally. But let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Can we really trust Americans? A quick look at NAFTA is all it takes. Even Obama the Saviour has protectionist ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:45 pm 
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tonysoprano wrote:
This is obviously a touchy subject and open to different interpretation. IMO, as I stated above, if the US government wants to get involved and keep it political, I'm ok with it. However, ALPA represents many airlines in Canada as well. This is definitely conflict of interest and if I were represented by ALPA in Canada, I would be fuming right now and on the phone with the boys down south asking them WTF? It just happened to deal with AC but this also affects Jazz, 7F, Canjet ect... If you want to be an international organization you better represent internationally. But let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Can we really trust Americans? A quick look at NAFTA is all it takes. Even Obama the Saviour has protectionist ideas.


ALPA does not represent the pilot group that operate the JETZ flights, nor are they likely to any time in the near future. ALPA does not write the operating certificate rules for foreign airlines, nor do they sit on any tribunal that administers those rules. Looks like AC was lucky top get away with what it got away with and now the door is closed (unless a Bush brother gets elected to the White House in 2012 :lol: )

Dealing with the rules and the ever changing interpretation of the rules is all part of the game. Just ask the gang at Emirates HQ how they feel about Canadian rules.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Rudder.
You're missing the point. This isn't about AC. This is about ALPA representation. What if First Air or jazz bid for this flying and got it? They are represented by ALPA. What if they wish to and won't just knowing their own union is trying to prevent this? I mean it just goes against their own membership. Why is ALPA not spending their time and money fighting for the rights of the Canadian groups they represent? I think ALPA is dealing with a hot potato here. They should just stay out of it and let the politicians work this out. Oh wait, don't one of those A's in ALPA stand for "America"?
Here's part of their letter:
Quote:
“ALPA brought it to the Obama administration’s attention, and the DOT started an investigation,” Rice said. “While the investigation is still under way, this letter proves that we were right. It shows how your union protects your flying and works to reverse bad decisions that could set devastating precedents for undermining laws that every country and every airline should adhere to and respect.”

Can they write the same letter to their Canadian groups? I would be furious if I were a member of ALPA in Canada.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:43 pm 
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tonysoprano wrote:
Oh wait, don't one of those A's in ALPA stand for "America"?


Just schecked at http://www.alpa.org - no 'America' in the name. 53,000 pilots/ 36 airlines/ 2 countries. Founding member of IFALPA. Has a separate Canada Board and an EVP representing the Canadian member pilot groups.

The union that seems the most pissed about this ruling - 3400 pilots/ 1 airline/ 1 country. No IFALPA recognition. Seeking applicants for vacant President's office :oops:

Nothing to see here folks. Just move on.



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 Post subject: Re: Cabotage?! ....
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:12 pm 
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Has a separate Canada Board and an EVP representing the Canadian member pilot groups.
Nice try. Anyway they are your union, no matter how you spin it and they are screwing you. Oh wait. Jazz couldn't fly pro sports teams anyway. Ok, I get it now. Yep, move on. :roll:
Quote:
The union that seems the most pissed about this ruling - 3400 pilots/ 1 airline/ 1 country. No IFALPA recognition. Seeking applicants for vacant President's office :oops:
We were actually one of the founding members of IFALPA, go figure. Pretty ignorant statement overall. Yes, time for Andy to go spend time with his family. Countless years of thankless work. He'll be missed. Speaking of thankless, you should show him respect, he has been working hard to save AirCanada/Jazz jobs for a long time. Tirelessly working in Ottawa voicing his concerns over the Emirites thing amongst others. Tell me what has ALPA done to save Canadian jobs?



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