Cabotage?! ....

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disco
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by disco »

Tony, so you think there is better pilot representation out there? I am yet to see it.

I happen to know Captain Paul Rice personally and can assure you that he is very PRO Canadian pilot. I know this first hand. I have worked alongside him on pro Canadian pilot initiatives. I have attended meetings with him in Ottawa. However, it is ALPA's duty to represent their membership. How is it ok that Canadian carriers do an end run around cabotage law? Reverse the situation - are we ok with American pilots coming up do take over Canada to Canada flights? What is so difficult or touchy about this? We were not playing by the rules and that has now been clarified by the Obama admin. I don't see this as grey as you do.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

Disco.
Back up a second. Have a look at my initial post. I admitted right off the bat that AC might be getting away with something here. Rules are rules. My point is that ALPA also represents pilot groups in Canada. Will they also stop First Air (ALPA) from doing these charters? Actually I think First Air have done these sport charters in the past. Pardon my political correctness but I just think that they (ALPA) may have wanted to sit this one out and let the Feds handle it. This has nothing to do with one union being better than another.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by mattedfred »

tonysoprano,

i would not support ALPA if they supported a bid by ACJ on this type of flying. please try not too sound so desperate when your trying to stir the pot. why don't you just join ALPA and merge lists so the infighting can come to an end?
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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

mattedfred wrote:tonysoprano,

i would not support ALPA if they supported a bid by ACJ on this type of flying. please try not too sound so desperate when your trying to stir the pot. why don't you just join ALPA and merge lists so the infighting can come to an end?
Why do you have to take this thread in that direction?
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by mattedfred »

i interpreted the tone of your posts and responded in kind with my own opinion
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by teacher »

I am 100% sure that ALPA would have stepped in had it been a US airline going against cabatoge rules in this country.

As for Jazz flying sports teams we do all the time among other charter work.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Lakelad »

really beginning to heat up

Canadian teams scramble as U.S. bans NHL charter flights

Friday, September 04, 2009 - Canwest News Service
Don Martin

Ottawa -- Canada's six NHLteams are scrambling to find alternative travel arrangements south of the border after the U.S. Department of Transportation banned Air Canada's charter fleet from flying between U.S. cities.

In a furious exchange with the Obama administration over the mid-August ruling, Canada has launched its own investigation and will soon close its skies to U.S. sports team charters in retaliation, warns Transport Minister John Baird.

The sticking point is an eight-year-old exemption that had allowed sports and celebrity charters to make several pit stops in American cities. Under existing open skies agreements, regular Canadian airline flights can only visit one U.S. city before returning.

NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly warns the charter ban will create a complicated "patchwork" of travel that could "wreck havoc" with the oncoming hockey schedule, including early league games in Europe, as teams scramble to book flights under the new rules.

"It's potentially a very significant impact," Daly said Friday. "It's crazy and very destabilizing to our business. We're operating on a long-standing interpretation and for it to change overnight on the eve of our season is creating a huge problem for us."

Air Canada executive vice president Duncan Dee predicted the ruling will create "chaos" for teams shuttling across the border. "It's extremely messy for both American and Canadian teams," he said. It was a unilateral action imposed without consultation or Air Canada being able to defend itself. It's obvious the U.S. Department of Transportation doesn't watch hockey."

The Air Canada charters fly under the Jetz label.

Baird said the dispute "shows the power of anti-free-trade Democrats in the Congress" and cautioned his government will respond in kind.

"We've already directed the Canadian Transportation Agency to launch a formal inquiry and the next step will be a direction to the CTA to immediate prohibit charter flights by U.S. carriers under season-long contracts with professional sports teams with multiple stops in Canada," he said in an interview.

The ruling also side-swipes musicians and other artists on tour.

The matter was pushed by the U.S. Air Line Pilots Association. It had demanded an investigation of passenger lists on the NHLflights, which found a few examples of injured players, personal trainers and team owners boarding the charter south of the border and departing at another U.S. city in a technical violation of the agreement.

Despite the small number of passengers involved, the American side ruled it was enough to shut down an arrangement negotiated eight years ago during the George W. Bush presidency.

The Anaheim Ducks have pulled back from an Air Canada contract and there are concerns existing clients like the Boston Bruins and NBA Milwaukee Bucks will follow suit.

Air Canada says it still hopes Baird's hard-line response will force a resolution by the time NHL season starts next month.

Former Air Canada president Montie Brewer says the Jetz charters are the only way to fly for teams that must reach their destinations without fail. Each charter plane comes with its own on-board mechanic and has exclusive access to private terminals regular airlines cannot use.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by ZBBYLW »

Well this new update is a bit of a mess. I hope Canada instead of "launching an investigation" play's hard ball with the US. Jetz may actually end up winning in the end though - if all the US teams going between Canada need a Canadian company- there really only is the one company that can provide this type of service.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by taylor498 »

Just an excerpt from a Yahoo Sports article along the same lines...
Yahoo Sports wrote: (Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:52 pm EDT) The most enlightening thing we've read about this dispute was in the forums for AVCanada.ca, an aviation site. The thread began back on Aug. 12, well before this became a hockey story, and the dialogue provides as least some semblance of balance as to why this "cabotage" situation is an important one for U.S. officials.
Again, it's a message board, and we have no idea who the posters are; but the sense we had after combing through the thread was that the laws are in place to prevent foreign airlines from providing local service, undercutting domestic carriers in everything from airfare to wages.
It's all just another big, bloated hockey business story in a summer that's seen too many of them. But more than that, it's another uncomfortable U.S. vs. Canada dispute -- and lord knows we've had enough of that this summer, too.
We're famous!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_d ... nhl,187445
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Brick Head »

This is all about passenger manifests. Nothing illegal takes when a foreign carrier flies point to point within Canada or the US on a charter. The catch? The passenger manifest can not change. No one gets off. No one gets on. Problem? What do you do with an injured player? What do you do with the guy who gets called up from the minors to replace him?

The US found a couple of instances where the manifest changed and that was enough to revoke.

The problem is that no foreign carrier can operate point to point within the US or Canada without being subject to the same problem. What do you do about it?


You either stop the reciprocal agreement all together (both sides of the boarder) or you make allowances for it.

One of the two will play out.

It will be a massive scramble but the charter flying will just get divided domestically. Dogs breakfast might be more accurate as the NHL schedule used to be built with all this in mind. AC will loose point to point in the US on a charter. US carriers will loose the same in Canada. Back to the way it used to be. Just less convenient for the teams.

This is really just protectionism. I mean Jetz started making enormous leaps into the US sports charter market starting last spring. Signing contracts with a multitude of sport teams. The teams liked the product. The US decided they didn't like the idea of competition when they were loosing. Gov't imposed repatriation of the work. As pointed out above. No different than Canada and Emerites though.

We all like the ides of competition until it becomes apparent we are loosing.

Most of this work was new. In the balance of things this will probably leave Jetz with the same amount of flying as last year. It however completely eliminates access to expansion.

Which by the way, is the whole point of this US action. And yes if we were at the loosing end of transferring work to foreign pilots we would be doing the same
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by cjet »

The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Troubleshot »

cjet wrote:The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

CJET
Bettman would probably put a cap on how much teams could spend on their aircraft.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by ZBBYLW »

Troubleshot wrote:
cjet wrote:The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

CJET
Bettman would probably put a cap on how much teams could spend on their aircraft.
Nah, he will just enforce a "Greyhound only" policy so the league can save money and use that money to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix! :rolleyes:
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by loopa »

In a furious exchange with the Obama administration over the mid-August ruling, Canada has launched its own investigation and will soon close its skies to U.S. sports team charters in retaliation, warns Transport Minister John Baird.
Or world's leaders are run by a sense of kindergarten attitude. What kind of childish nonsense is this really? :lol:


Oh Boy :rolleyes: Looks like this recession has taken a toll to people's sanity. We're going crazy !!! :smt040
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Brick Head wrote:This is all about passenger manifests. Nothing illegal takes when a foreign carrier flies point to point within Canada or the US on a charter. The catch? The passenger manifest can not change. No one gets off. No one gets on. Problem? What do you do with an injured player? What do you do with the guy who gets called up from the minors to replace him?

The US found a couple of instances where the manifest changed and that was enough to revoke.

The problem is that no foreign carrier can operate point to point within the US or Canada without being subject to the same problem. What do you do about it?


You either stop the reciprocal agreement all together (both sides of the boarder) or you make allowances for it.

One of the two will play out.

It will be a massive scramble but the charter flying will just get divided domestically. Dogs breakfast might be more accurate as the NHL schedule used to be built with all this in mind. AC will loose point to point in the US on a charter. US carriers will loose the same in Canada. Back to the way it used to be. Just less convenient for the teams.

This is really just protectionism. I mean Jetz started making enormous leaps into the US sports charter market starting last spring. Signing contracts with a multitude of sport teams. The teams liked the product. The US decided they didn't like the idea of competition when they were loosing. Gov't imposed repatriation of the work. As pointed out above. No different than Canada and Emerites though.

We all like the ides of competition until it becomes apparent we are loosing.

Most of this work was new. In the balance of things this will probably leave Jetz with the same amount of flying as last year. It however completely eliminates access to expansion.

Which by the way, is the whole point of this US action. And yes if we were at the loosing end of transferring work to foreign pilots we would be doing the same
You are right about the passenger manifest, but they also bring up the point that "scheduled airlines cannot go point to point in the US". Does this mean charter only operators are exempt? If so might be a good time to start a "sports charter outfit" :D
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Brick Head »

Rubberbiscuit wrote:
You are right about the passenger manifest, but they also bring up the point that "scheduled airlines cannot go point to point in the US". Does this mean charter only operators are exempt? If so might be a good time to start a "sports charter outfit" :D
JETZ is not a scheduled airline. JETZ is a separate company created by AC to do charter work.

What it means is charter companies were exempt, and by law, still are. This is the catch.

“the inherently variable nature of a sports team’s personnel during a season, there appears to be no practical means to ensure that there would not be carriage of U.S. domestic-only traffic during any season-long contract.”

So although the US laws have not changed (point to point charter work is still perfectly legal) the US has simply stated they don't see a practical way for the gov't to ensure compliance of the law. So you can't do it any more.

Kinda like you can't drive your car anymore because we have no practical means to ensure you will never speed again. Can't have radar everywhere. 8)

I wonder how this way of thinking will affect the right to bare arms? Is there really a practical way to ensure the firearm is not used illegally :smt040


This has not been about disallowing separate business ventures by corporations.

It is all about protectionism.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Brick Head wrote:
I wonder how this way of thinking will affect the right to bare arms?
Oh man, if they take away that right I'll have to wear long sleeves in the summer! Talk about sweating! :smt040

and while we're at it, the opposite of 'winning' is 'losing', NOT 'loosing'

yah yah, I'll slap myself for you
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by shagger »

Hey Gang ...Former F/A here w/ AC now fly in YYC as a pilot Capt Be 200. Wonder if, seeing as Jetz is a separate entity, why don't they apply for a 604 operating certificate and do the fractional thing but on a year to year basis. Having flown for Canada's largest Fractional Operation this might be the solution to get around this ridiculous ruling.

IMHO, any comments? think it would work?
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Widow »

Tuesday, September 15, 2009

SEPTEMBER 15, 2009.
NHL Teams Hit in Air Brawl
Some Charter Flights Iced as U.S. and Canada Drop the Gloves Over Aviation
By SUSAN CAREY

The National Hockey League regular season has yet to begin, but elbows are flying in an aviation scrap between the U.S. and Canada that threatens to disrupt air-charter arrangements made by many NHL teams.

Air Canada last week sued U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, seeking to block his enforcement of an Aug. 11 Transportation Department order that Air Canada to cancel its season-long sports charter contracts. Air Canada's Jetz charter service currently has contracts with the six Canada-based NHL squads and the Toronto Raptors basketball team.

The U.S. order "creates a potential disaster" for our teams, said Ian Clarke, chief financial officer of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd., the company that owns the Raptors and the Toronto Maple Leafs, in an affidavit supporting the Air Canada lawsuit. "It is uncertain whether we will be able to contract for all the charter services we require in order to meet our game schedule." The Leafs' first preseason road game is Thursday in Philadelphia.

The ruling "is wreaking havoc on the hockey season," said Air Canada, a unit of ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., in its lawsuit. "The urgency of this matter cannot be minimized."

Air Canada claimed the U.S. position has cost it contracts with three U.S. NHL teams this season, including the Boston Bruins. The Bruins declined to comment.

At issue is whether Air Canada is allowed to fly Canadian sports teams between U.S. destinations without first returning to Canada. By law and treaty, foreign airlines can't pick up passengers when flying between U.S. cities -- nor can U.S. airlines in most foreign nations, including Canada.

However, the DOT for years has allowed Air Canada to fly sports teams on back-to-back U.S. flights if the teams ultimately would return to Canada. Similarly, U.S. airlines ferrying American teams have been allowed to fly within Canada.

But the Air Line Pilots Association union, two U.S. aviation trade groups and a U.S. charter carrier began calling for a penalty last year because Air Canada won DOT-approved contracts to fly two American sports teams, the NHL's Bruins and the Milwaukee Bucks of the National Basketball Association.

The pilots union wants to assure that U.S. flights are operated by U.S. airline pilots. Capt. Paul Rice, a vice president of the union, said "ALPA scored a hat trick" with the DOT's Aug. 11 decision.

In a two-page order to Air Canada's Washington lawyer, the DOT said the agency found the airline last year carried individuals on Bruins and Bucks charters who were transported within the U.S. and never carried across the border during the season, contrary to the DOT's agreement with the airline.

Canada's Minister of Transport, John Baird, fired back in a letter to Mr. LaHood demanding the DOT retract its decision, calling it "an unprecedented interference in the operations of the marketplace" and a "step backward" in the two nations' history of collaboration.

This Canadian Transportation Agency retaliated by banning charter flights by U.S. carriers that require multiple stops within Canada. Miami Air International Inc., a U.S. charter carrier that has contracts with 10 NHL teams this season, had to arrange for a Canadian charter to make intra-Canada flights last weekend for the Florida Panthers, rather than carry the NHL team itself, said Ross Fischer, chief executive of Miami Air.

Miami Air also had to amend its travel plans last weekend for a major-league baseball client, the Toronto Blue Jays, Mr. Fischer said. Instead of flying the team to Windsor, Ontario, from Toronto, as the team requested, the flight went to Detroit. He also said he had been advised by the Canadian government that his airline can't get around the ban by, say, stopping in Buffalo, N.Y., on a Montreal-to-Ottawa hop.

"We're scrambling," Mr. Fischer said. But the situation is worse for Canadian teams because they have more back-to-back games in the U.S., where there are 24 NHL teams. Canadian teams could be forced to return to their home country between each U.S. game, which would be expensive.

Bill Daly, deputy commissioner of the NHL, said the league "is extremely concerned with these new interpretations, especially on the eve of the new season when our teams have all made their travel arrangements already."

Air Canada said it hoped a solution could be reached between the governments, and was considering options to arrange transportation between U.S. cities during the new season.

In its lawsuit, the airline said it has a DOT permit to operate charter service between any points in Canada and the U.S. Because of the "open skies" treaty between the U.S. and Canada, Air Canada asserts it can make an unlimited number of U.S. stopovers, which allows the airline to offer season-long charters for sports teams whose schedules require play in both countries. The entire charter contract and season-long itinerary is treated as a single journey with multiple stopovers, the airline contends.

A hearing on Air Canada's complaint, filed in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., is scheduled for Tuesday. A DOT spokesman declined to comment, as did a spokesman for Transport Canada.

The NHL preseason was slated to begin Monday night with a face-off between the New York Islanders and the Vancouver Canucks; the regular season begins Oct. 1.
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by teacher »

OK, point to point in the U.S. with an American team is one thing that I agree is a little border line in terms of cabotage BUT point to point in the US with a Canadian team seems fair (even if there are US citizens on board). Especially when an agreement to do so had already been signed. They cannot load additional passengers without approval though which would have to be figured out or exempted. This screams of protectionism and I'm glad our govornment has retaliated against this.
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