Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Does anybody have the specific mailing/phone information for the Intake Office at the Human Rights Commission that is currently taking applications for 60+ in the AC case? Can you please post it.
Also does anybody know what the current backlog numbers are? There is the V-K issue, then about 70 currently before the Tribunal and another 30-40+ being processed by the Commission for forwarding to the Tribunal??
Thanks.
Also does anybody know what the current backlog numbers are? There is the V-K issue, then about 70 currently before the Tribunal and another 30-40+ being processed by the Commission for forwarding to the Tribunal??
Thanks.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
The information you request is available at the Canadian Human Rights Commission website http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/contact
and the Flypast60.com web-site.
If you are inquiring about a potential complaint, please contact by telephone, fax or mail.
Here are some links that may help answer some of your questions:
* Dispute Resolution
* Who can a complaint be filed against
* Prohibited Grounds of Discrimination
* Frequently Asked Questions
3) Contact information
Canadian Human Rights Commission
344 Slater Street, 8th Floor, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 1E1, Canada
Telephone: (613) 995-1151
Toll Free: 1-888-214-1090
TTY: 1-888-643-3304
Fax: (613) 996-9661
Regional Offices
Join the Fly Past 60 Group at Flypast60.com There is lots of information on the site and once you contact them they will get you up to speed on all the steps you need to take to be properly represented and how to prepare for your case.
and the Flypast60.com web-site.
If you are inquiring about a potential complaint, please contact by telephone, fax or mail.
Here are some links that may help answer some of your questions:
* Dispute Resolution
* Who can a complaint be filed against
* Prohibited Grounds of Discrimination
* Frequently Asked Questions
3) Contact information
Canadian Human Rights Commission
344 Slater Street, 8th Floor, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 1E1, Canada
Telephone: (613) 995-1151
Toll Free: 1-888-214-1090
TTY: 1-888-643-3304
Fax: (613) 996-9661
Regional Offices
Join the Fly Past 60 Group at Flypast60.com There is lots of information on the site and once you contact them they will get you up to speed on all the steps you need to take to be properly represented and how to prepare for your case.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Thanks very much. It seems there were about 70 all lumped together from various filings in the group that has just finished the hearing process a few weeks ago? Is there any expectation on the next 30-40 and if that will be the same type of procedure or not - do they wait until there is another 70 or so before the next grouping or are there other developments happening?
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Just my opinion, but by following the cases, I believe that both groups have won their cases and the remedy phase is in progress. An order for cease and desist is imminent, as is reinstatement for those who have filed cases. I doubt it will apply to anyone who hasn't filed a complaint. I do suspect that a number have signed on that don't necessarily want to come back, but believe in supporting the group. There may even be a few who see the win and hope to cash in. It is incumbent on the individual to have made steps to mitigate their damages. Just signing up is not enough. Records of job app's, letters to the company requesting continuing work etc. The Fly Past 60 group can tell you exactly what is required. I doubt that this will go before the Tribunal in another case before Air Canada capitulates or is forced to Cease and Desist, but other complaints in other sections of the CHRA may be brought before the Tribunal, especially in light of the behavior of ACPA over these past 4-7 years.
Also, there is no way on earth that the Federal court will reverse its decision, (contrary to Brick Head's wishes,) so that is only an expensive delaying tactic of ACPAs. Remember the ACPA and AC lawyers get paid no matter what. They are happy at our idiotic plan to drag this out and spend as much money on it as possible.
These are my opinions.
I have tried not to offer opinions, only facts before. I prefer if you all make up your own minds based on facts, not ACPA propaganda.
We should press ACPA to get the Pension Calculator to allow it to show what happens to your pensions if you choose to stay past 60. Just a thought. We all could ask them.
Also, there is no way on earth that the Federal court will reverse its decision, (contrary to Brick Head's wishes,) so that is only an expensive delaying tactic of ACPAs. Remember the ACPA and AC lawyers get paid no matter what. They are happy at our idiotic plan to drag this out and spend as much money on it as possible.
These are my opinions.
I have tried not to offer opinions, only facts before. I prefer if you all make up your own minds based on facts, not ACPA propaganda.
We should press ACPA to get the Pension Calculator to allow it to show what happens to your pensions if you choose to stay past 60. Just a thought. We all could ask them.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Just go to the ACPA pension calculator and change your date of birth to 5 years younger. Change the retirement date to reflect how young you now are.DocAV8R wrote:We should press ACPA to get the Pension Calculator to allow it to show what happens to your pensions if you choose to stay past 60. Just a thought. We all could ask them.
https://secure.acpa.ca/members/committe ... laimer.asp
Then don't forget to add in some extra annual earnings for your best 5 because you will be able to hold a higher paying position.
The results of 5 extra years at a higher rate will be much more than you would get at age 60. Probably $10-20,000 per year, for the rest of your life.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
For the rest of your now shorter life.... Great!
Where to sign up
Where to sign up
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
You can retire early if you like. Don't worry, we won't think you're lazy because of it.Al707 wrote:For the rest of your now shorter life.... Great!
Where to sign up
I've always found it somewhat amusing that even though we obviously love flying and pursued this career with singleminded determination, we get here and spend the rest of our career avoiding flying as much as possible, and want to quit as soon as possible.
As a group we aren't exactly good examples of work ethic.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Actually, I pursued a flying career because I wanted the lifestyle that Air Canada provides. Was it risky to bet it all on getting hired with Air Canada...yes...but it worked.Rockie wrote:You can retire early if you like. Don't worry, we won't think you're lazy because of it.Al707 wrote:For the rest of your now shorter life.... Great!
Where to sign up
I've always found it somewhat amusing that even though we obviously love flying and pursued this career with singleminded determination, we get here and spend the rest of our career avoiding flying as much as possible, and want to quit as soon as possible.
As a group we aren't exactly good examples of work ethic.
I do love flying...but at the end of the day, it's a job...and it's always been just a job for me. I have other hobbies and interests that I prefer over going to work and I will take the first opportunity I can to retire comfortably and further pursue my non-flying related interests. I think you will find a large number of pilots share my view.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to work as little as possible and quit as soon as possible...but if flying till you die suits you, I hope you pursue it with "singleminded determination".
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
The pension was design for guys hired at 25 years or younger. Many things have changed since those days and the job is no longer what it was. Few, if any, new-hires are 25 or younger these days, and it only makes sense that we either change the pension rules or change the retirement rules.
Unfortunately the time for discussion is long past and now the courts will decide the outcome for us.
Unfortunately the time for discussion is long past and now the courts will decide the outcome for us.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
I said I find it somewhat amusing and a poor example of work ethic. It's certainly not the work ethic I would teach my kids, but there's nothing "wrong" with it in the strict sense of the word. You're paid a minimum monthly guarantee, and if you can get that while only putting in half the work good for you. It's perfectly legal and acceptable under the contract.HavaJava wrote:There is nothing wrong with wanting to work as little as possible and quit as soon as possible...
Same with retiring as early as you can. You worked hard for it (well...sort of...maybe), and it's your choice.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
When ACPA put the matter to vote in April 2006 they had this to say in the package about PBS bidding:
ACPA PBS Committee – Will impact monthly bidding system as accommodations will have to be made to take into account factors such as other countries’ restrictions on overflights and U.S. alternates, and
skewing of senior/junior pilots bidding rights.
However two months before the PBS committee actually reported this:
PBS Committee
No problem with the PBS system with pilots flying beyond age 60; unless other countries maintain age 60 restriction (e.g. the U.S.A.) – then possible accommodation will have to be made in bidding system, including factors of overflights and U.S. alternates, skewing senior/junior pilots bidding rights possibly.
(F. Coates, Feb. 14/’06)
Not quite the same. I won't say the MEC lied about this, but there is a curious difference and I leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions.
In the same package the MEC also said this:
"In May 2005, ALPA's Executive Board voted unanimously to accept the results of the survey of the pilot membership, which reaffirmed ALPA's long-standing policy on supporting mandatory retirement at age 60. When asked to rank legislative issues in order of importance, ALPA pilots said changing the age 60 rule was at the bottom of the list."
What they have not said is that in May 2007 the ALPA executive board reversed that decision by an overwhelming 80% vote. In the face of concerted efforts to change the rule in Congress and the FAA, the executive board directed that union resources be committed to protecting pilot interests by exerting ALPA's influence in any rule change.
Clearly ALPA was smart enough to know the change was coming regardless of their wishes and changed tactics accordingly. Here in Canada the rule has already changed, yet ACPA still doesn't realize it and continues to fight a lost battle.
ACPA PBS Committee – Will impact monthly bidding system as accommodations will have to be made to take into account factors such as other countries’ restrictions on overflights and U.S. alternates, and
skewing of senior/junior pilots bidding rights.
However two months before the PBS committee actually reported this:
PBS Committee
No problem with the PBS system with pilots flying beyond age 60; unless other countries maintain age 60 restriction (e.g. the U.S.A.) – then possible accommodation will have to be made in bidding system, including factors of overflights and U.S. alternates, skewing senior/junior pilots bidding rights possibly.
(F. Coates, Feb. 14/’06)
Not quite the same. I won't say the MEC lied about this, but there is a curious difference and I leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions.
In the same package the MEC also said this:
"In May 2005, ALPA's Executive Board voted unanimously to accept the results of the survey of the pilot membership, which reaffirmed ALPA's long-standing policy on supporting mandatory retirement at age 60. When asked to rank legislative issues in order of importance, ALPA pilots said changing the age 60 rule was at the bottom of the list."
What they have not said is that in May 2007 the ALPA executive board reversed that decision by an overwhelming 80% vote. In the face of concerted efforts to change the rule in Congress and the FAA, the executive board directed that union resources be committed to protecting pilot interests by exerting ALPA's influence in any rule change.
Clearly ALPA was smart enough to know the change was coming regardless of their wishes and changed tactics accordingly. Here in Canada the rule has already changed, yet ACPA still doesn't realize it and continues to fight a lost battle.
- circlingfor69
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
the only reason ALPA was in favour of a revised retirement age was the fact that most american airline pilots had their persion wiped out after 9/11.
One feathered,the other on fire!
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Really?circlingfor69 wrote:the only reason ALPA was in favour of a revised retirement age was the fact that most american airline pilots had their persion wiped out after 9/11.
"Concurrent to this internal ALPA work, legislative efforts in Congress to change the pilot mandatory retirement age accelerated, including the introduction of S.65 and H.R.1125 – “The Freedom to Fly Act.” The Panel concluded that the provisions in these bills do not sufficiently address ALPA’s issues with respect to a change in the mandatory retirement age.
In response to this conclusion, the Council recommended to the Executive Board that ALPA modify its policy to enable ALPA to influence legislation and regulatory efforts. This became more critical as legislative efforts to change the rule accelerated.
In its deliberations, the Board took into account the high likelihood of rule change through either the legislative or the regulatory process, as well as survey data from ALPA members overwhelmingly affirming that if the rule is going to change, ALPA needs to influence that change. ALPA will now develop a comprehensive legislative plan to do just that."
- circlingfor69
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
YEAH REALLY!!!!
I dont give a sh%t about all this crap you continue to dig up!! (The bare fact that you have time to do this 12 hours a day is a testament to the sad life you must lead.)
Go talk to one of these pilots in the States. I just happened to be on a crew shuttle with a nice chap in LGA just the other day. He was VERY clear about the fact that that vast majority of pilots down there don't want to fly to 65 but have to to make up the money that they lost due to their very lack pension regulations. WE DO NOT HAVE these same lack regulations in Canada. (Can't wait to read your smart a$$ reply in 30 seconds)
I dont give a sh%t about all this crap you continue to dig up!! (The bare fact that you have time to do this 12 hours a day is a testament to the sad life you must lead.)
Go talk to one of these pilots in the States. I just happened to be on a crew shuttle with a nice chap in LGA just the other day. He was VERY clear about the fact that that vast majority of pilots down there don't want to fly to 65 but have to to make up the money that they lost due to their very lack pension regulations. WE DO NOT HAVE these same lack regulations in Canada. (Can't wait to read your smart a$$ reply in 30 seconds)
One feathered,the other on fire!
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
No one is forcing you to work past 60.
I for one like the option to go past 60, if I might want to.
For me, having to wait an extra year for an upgrade is well
worth having the freedom to continue doing what I love for a
little longer if I want to, and to retire when I feel I am ready.
I just started at Air Canada 10 years ago. I love what I do. It is too bad so many pilots
would rather be somewhere else than in an airplane doing the best job in the world.
I for one like the option to go past 60, if I might want to.
For me, having to wait an extra year for an upgrade is well
worth having the freedom to continue doing what I love for a
little longer if I want to, and to retire when I feel I am ready.
I just started at Air Canada 10 years ago. I love what I do. It is too bad so many pilots
would rather be somewhere else than in an airplane doing the best job in the world.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Sorry, I was away for a couple of hours doing things with my sad life.circlingfor69 wrote:YEAH REALLY!!!!
I dont give a sh%t about all this crap you continue to dig up!! (The bare fact that you have time to do this 12 hours a day is a testament to the sad life you must lead.)
Go talk to one of these pilots in the States. I just happened to be on a crew shuttle with a nice chap in LGA just the other day. He was VERY clear about the fact that that vast majority of pilots down there don't want to fly to 65 but have to to make up the money that they lost due to their very lack pension regulations. WE DO NOT HAVE these same lack regulations in Canada. (Can't wait to read your smart a$$ reply in 30 seconds)
So...you were on a bus in LGA with a nice chap just the other day, and he was VERY clear about the real reason ALPA did what they did. Was he speaking for the 80% of ALPA MEC chairs who issued the press release from my last post? No?
Hmmm.
ALPA says they changed their position because they could not stop it, so accepted it under the condition that their fundamental concerns were addressed. They reasoned if they spent all their effort fighting what couldn't be won, the rule would come into effect without their input. Smart strategy because their concerns were addressed.
Contrast that with ACPA's position. How would you say they're doing?
- circlingfor69
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
No one is forcing you to stop working at 60. Retirement at 60 is a contractual PERK that has been MUTUALLY agreed upon by employer and employee at Air Canada. By all means carry on flying past 60 but dont do it at AC.
I love to fly to. What I dont love is the thought that I'm going to miss 5 more Christmas' with my kids, 5 more birthdays, 5 more anniversaries. All the while watching those A$$HOLES at the top reap the rewards of being at the top for 5 more years. I dont know how these guys can look at themselves in the mirror these days.
I love to fly to. What I dont love is the thought that I'm going to miss 5 more Christmas' with my kids, 5 more birthdays, 5 more anniversaries. All the while watching those A$$HOLES at the top reap the rewards of being at the top for 5 more years. I dont know how these guys can look at themselves in the mirror these days.
One feathered,the other on fire!
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Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Why do you think you will have to work 5 more years? Please explain.circlingfor69 wrote:I love to fly to. What I dont love is the thought that I'm going to miss 5 more Christmas' with my kids, 5 more birthdays, 5 more anniversaries. All the while watching those A$$HOLES at the top reap the rewards of being at the top for 5 more years. I dont know how these guys can look at themselves in the mirror these days.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
Having missed my share of Christmas's I can sympathize. I've likely missed more than you though, and as a result of this ruling I'm sure to miss more...just like you.
But you seem to be ignoring the fact that mandatory retirement is age discrimination in this country and therefore illegal. As well, the federal government is in the process of removing all reference to "normal retirement age" from the books which is the rationale behind ACPA's legal fight. Even in the highly unlikely event ACPA wins this case, the clause they won it on is disappearing and they're back where they started. In fact if every case before the CHRT was summarily dropped tomorrow it wouldn't change a thing. Age 60 is out.
Get used to it.
But you seem to be ignoring the fact that mandatory retirement is age discrimination in this country and therefore illegal. As well, the federal government is in the process of removing all reference to "normal retirement age" from the books which is the rationale behind ACPA's legal fight. Even in the highly unlikely event ACPA wins this case, the clause they won it on is disappearing and they're back where they started. In fact if every case before the CHRT was summarily dropped tomorrow it wouldn't change a thing. Age 60 is out.
Get used to it.
Re: Mandatory Retirement to be Eliminated in Parliament
"We live in a world of mediocrity and mental dishonesty and it seems to be a disease that affects lots of pilots who want the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." ......Quote
All good posts Rockie.......I believe that the vast majority of pilots at Air Canada want the option of continuing to fly past 60 or believe that this is a human rights issue and are willing to let the Courts decide !!
Read what the committees {ACPA} who wrote reports, said about flying past 60............Hey...but don't let the facts get in the way of a good slagging . Another proud moment for ACPA....Something to tell the wife and the kids about.......!!
Max 111
All good posts Rockie.......I believe that the vast majority of pilots at Air Canada want the option of continuing to fly past 60 or believe that this is a human rights issue and are willing to let the Courts decide !!
Read what the committees {ACPA} who wrote reports, said about flying past 60............Hey...but don't let the facts get in the way of a good slagging . Another proud moment for ACPA....Something to tell the wife and the kids about.......!!
Max 111