Why in the world???

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flyinhigh
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Why in the world???

Post by flyinhigh »

Legitamite question here.

Why in the world do any of you wanna fly with Air Canada past 60, seriously. The love of flying arguement doesn't hold water for me as I look at airlines as giant computers as that is what they are. There is no way you can tell me sitting there for 10+ hours is true flying as you are not flying, the auto pilot is.

To me true flyin is exactly what I and most of you had to do to get where we are. Fly a beaver, meeting the passengers, making awesome contacts and having an awesome time. When I turn 60 my plan is to be doing exactly that again.

Right now you guys get to walk away making i'm guessing close to 150K, flight benefits, etc in the time of your life you should truely be loving it, yet you wanna get jet lagged.

For those of us that just don't get it, please say why you wanna continue to work as until I personally get a legit answer this will remain my way of thinking.

Also, pls don't say because I can I am being disciminated against. Were changing Canada as that is just an assine answer.
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the original tony
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by the original tony »

Legit? You got it

I'm greedy, I like the seat I got and I ain't leaving, my 3 wives need money,
the cottage needs a new roof, my 4th and present wife needs a new BMW,
nobody told me "the good old days" have ended and I saved jack shit, so you
are going to pay for my spend and not save years, this is the seat I earned from others
retiring and thanks to them I have a place I can call home till I die, really.
several of my kids are still out there and I guess I'm still paying for them, if they let me work another..... lot of years I will definitely save money this time, man that new FA is cute.... Human rights are a beautiful thing.

Close enough????
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morefun
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by morefun »

Awesome I now have a reason for staying till I die.... :rolleyes:
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by crazy_aviator »

The last poster showed a sense of greed and selfishness to get where he is now without proper , mature planning. The first poster showed he is inconsiderate in taking a new pilots job out of his hands (beaver job) and the retiring pilot doesnt even need the money,,,just doing it for the fun !!!! BOY, talk about maturity in aviation , NOT !!! :roll:
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QKDH8
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by QKDH8 »

*Disclaimer:

I don't work for Air Canada, or closely know anyone who does. I don't have any opinion when it comes to the Fly Past 60 issue. I still have 30 + years to retirement, so when I'm talking about people wanting to stay past 60, it's speaking only hypothetically.

Regardless of whether you support flypast 60 or not, this post is irrelevant. To come on here an say, I feel this way, so I can't understand why anyone feels different, and to argumentatively demand they justify it to you is so incredible immature I can't believe it's an issue, even on this forum.

Maybe they're greedy, maybe they never learned how to handle their money, or maybe the like their job, maybe they're working to donate their entire salary to charity. So what? Their motivation doesn't change anything.
If you support flypast 60 then you have to support it regardless of what motivation they have for wanting to stay. Greed, Mismanagement etc.
If you don't support it, then it doesn't matter why they want to stay, you want them out at 60.

So this conversation is irrelevant.

Now to dissect flyinhighs post:
Legitamite question here.
Hardly. You don't even work for Air Canada. You've made it quite clear you never want to. Why do you care?
Why in the world do any of you wanna fly with Air Canada past 60, seriously. The love of flying arguement doesn't hold water for me as I look at airlines as giant computers as that is what they are. There is no way you can tell me sitting there for 10+ hours is true flying as you are not flying, the auto pilot is. To me true flyin is exactly what I and most of you had to do to get where we are. Fly a beaver, meeting the passengers, making awesome contacts and having an awesome time. When I turn 60 my plan is to be doing exactly that again.
'I look at flying as giant computer'. Well that's how you look at it. It strikes me as being particularly ignorant to have come on here and said, "well this is how I see it, so I refuse to believe anyone could see it otherwise." Has it occurred to you, that maybe people like their jobs for some reason other than hand flying an aircraft? Perhaps "flying" to them means a totally different thing then it does to you. Maybe they like the challenge of being part of a large team pulling together to accomplish a goal. Maybe they like the technical aspects of flying their respective airplanes. Maybe they like the social aspect of drinking wine on layovers with their cabin crew friends in Zurich, or the shopping in Hong Kong. There are a million reasons someone might like there job, and they don't have to justify it to you. Just because you don't like the same things they like, it doesn't mean they're wrong. You have a very inmature view to say "because I wouldn't like flying long haul on autopilot, I refuse to accept that other people would." Consider this, I bet there are pilots out there that would consider flying a beaver in northern manitoba a nightmare and would much prefer to be flying long haul when they're 60, not flying floats. That doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong.
Right now you guys get to walk away making i'm guessing close to 150K, flight benefits, etc in the time of your life you should truely be loving it, yet you wanna get jet lagged.
If they stay, they take home 200K, maybe slightly over if they're a wide-body captain. ($227/hr is the pay scale posted online, I'm not sure how accurate that is though) Some people suffer very little from jet lag, and have a surprising amount of energy after long-haul flights. Some people are ignorant to the effects this type of flying could be having on their health. Some people don't like it, and prefer staying in North America. There is no right answer. Do what works best for you, and don't come on a forum and belittle others for doing what works best for them.
For those of us that just don't get it, please say why you wanna continue to work
I think it's EXTREMELY presumptuous to come on here and start a post demanding to know why people want to make a decision that has nothing to do with you. NOBODY is required to justify themselves to you.
as until I personally get a legit answer this will remain my way of thinking.
I doubt anyone really cares what you're way of thinking is. Just keep it to yourself instead of inciting yet another fly past 60 thread.

If you really thought that starting this thread would lead to a constructive positive discussion, then I'd love to hear how you got your medical back after that frontal lobe lobotomy.
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Last edited by QKDH8 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

morefun
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by morefun »

You guys are just to sensitive...lighten up. It will be what it is and if it does come to pass no one needs a reason to stay it will just be the law so if you feel the need to vent go cry to your mommy..! :goodman:
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flyinhigh
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by flyinhigh »

morefun wrote:You guys are just to sensitive...lighten up.
exactly, You wanna take this as another bitch thread fine, thats your preogative. At no point did I say I think anyone is a douche for staying.

I am curious, as I know TONS of others are as to why people wanna stay.

The first response is what I was looking for, now chill.
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vic777
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by vic777 »

flyinhigh wrote:Legitamite question here.
I'm not really sure how legitimate your question is. You don't have to be Einstein to understand that some people just want to keep doing their job, for the satisfaction and/or the money. Flying as a senior Captain for AC leaves plenty of time to fly the Beaver or the Pitts.
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Last edited by vic777 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QKDH8
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by QKDH8 »

These are 2 pretty contradictory statements.
I am curious, as I know TONS of others are as to why people wanna stay.
This first one implies you are actually looking for serious, factual, informative posts.
The first response is what I was looking for, now chill.
This second one references ridiculous, sarcastic drivel posted by "The Original Tony". If you were actually interested in answers to your questions, applauding the first response is very counter productive.

What I think you meant to say flyinhigh was:

"I'm looking for a bunch of other people to back up my own opinions using as much uniformed garbage as possible. I'm not interested in actually gaining insight into the questions I posed, nor am I interested in increasing the scope of my very narrow perspective. Can someone please oblige me with some sarcastic, uninformative posts?"
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by cdnpilot77 »

vic777 wrote:
flyinhigh wrote:Legitamite question here.
I'm not really sure how legitimate your question is. You don't have to be Einstein to understand that some people just want to keep doing their job, for the satisfaction and/or the money. Flying as a senior Captain for AC leaves plenty of time to fly the Beaver or the Pitts.
Great so its not enough that you don't want to allow people to progress in big red, you want to take away jobs from guys wanting to fly Beavers too? Very kind and unselfish of you! Do you want my puppy too?
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Rockie
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Rockie »

Why do people want to stay past 60?

1. Kids in school
2. Sick family members and big expenses.
3. Love of the job.
4. Insufficient pension
5. Family breakdown
6. Bernie Madoff stole all your money


And about 1000 more reasons, none of which are anybody's business except the individual who is not obligated to justify him or herself to anybody.
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burhead1
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by burhead1 »

Freedom of choice

Something we seem to be loosing these days.
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AMM
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by AMM »

Rockie wrote: And about 1000 more reasons, none of which are anybody's business except the individual who is not obligated to justify him or herself to anybody.
+1
I'm sick and tired of seeing these threads on here.
Stop asking questions and look away while we rape this industry for all its got.



cdnpilot77 wrote:Do you want my puppy too?
Sure do. I'd take it if I could and eat it, and make you watch.
Still wouldn't be enough though... maybe I should get a Beaver gig on the side.
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North Shore
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by North Shore »

Marmite,
Vegemite,
Legitamite?
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HavaJava
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by HavaJava »

burhead1 wrote:Freedom of choice

Something we seem to be loosing these days.
This is definately something the generation currently entering the workforce is losing. They will spend their lives supporting the greedy, self-absorbed baby-boomers and trying to pay off the massive debt that has been left over for them.
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the original tony
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by the original tony »

I read the reasons above and think it must be terrible to loose all your money, kids in school and everything all at once.
I need to work longer, sure I get that.
At what point do you have enough? Really?
Is it that you need the money or just want it.
Where is the line between what you need and what you want? Can you retire on a few million in the bank, a few hundred thousand. Or just a pension?
Your wants unfortunately don't out weigh the NEEDS of people making a fraction of your retirement pay. This is reality. Greed is reality.
I just can't take a guy seriously who mentions working for the REAL financial reasons mentioned above and in the same breath tell his buddy that he's on a much needed vacation to Europe.
Need and want,
Happy New Year and best of luck to all who NEED a job, really.
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Morry Bund
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Morry Bund »

I am new here. I have skimmed through a number of the threads, and quite honestly, I can't really understand why so much energy is focused in the discussions on people's motivation for working past age 60 (good intentions and selfish intentions, winners and losers) and why so little discussion is taking place about what should be done now to move forward.

With the impending passage of legislation to eliminate mandatory retirement for hundreds of thousands of workers in the entire country, does it really matter one iota whether anyone anywhere is for or against the change? If it is going to happen, why not deal with it, rather than cursing it?

Doesn't the focus on the past really short-change us?

Food for thought. Thanks.
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Janszoon
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Janszoon »

Morry Bund wrote:With the impending passage of legislation to eliminate mandatory retirement for hundreds of thousands of workers in the entire country, does it really matter one iota whether anyone anywhere is for or against the change? If it is going to happen, why not deal with it, rather than cursing it?
The younger generations have a problem with this, the baby-boomers in a position to change the rules to favour them. They grew up in a time of cheap education, job opportunities, cheap gas, muscle cars, drugs and rock and rock, and they had it all. Knew a buddy in the airlines, you're in. They spent all their money in the 80's and partied it up, enjoying the good life.

Now that retirement is coming for them and they realize that they didn't plan ahead, they want to work longer, drain the system more and have the younger generation pay for it all. They set the rules now, and the younger generation, dealing with high gas prices, tuition fees that have gone through the roof, higher taxes, less job opportunity, lower wages, and environmental mess, have to pay for their fun times by having 2-income houses as the norm.

Don't expect the younger generation to enjoy cleaning up the older generation's mess.
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nottellin
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by nottellin »

Well said Janzoon

I thin the younger generations are finally starting to realize that we have been screwed over by our parents generations.
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Lost in Saigon
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Lost in Saigon »

I want to fly past 60 because after 30 years I still love my job.

Those of you who find that hard to believe, might be in the wrong business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3gKegWsv9g
One of the Trusted by Gill Robb Wilson

You are at cruising altitude.
The westering sun is pink on the disc.
Your eye flicks the gauges. The engines are contented.
Another day—another dollar.

You look down at your hands on the wheel.
They are veined and hard and brown.
Tonight you notice they look a little old.
And, by George, they are old. But how can this be?
Only yesterday you were in flying school.
Time is a thief. You have been robbed.
And what have you to show for it?
A pilot—twenty years a pilot—a senior pilot.
But what of it—just a pilot.
Then the voice of the stewardess breaks in on your reverie.
The trip is running full—eighty-four passengers
Can she begin to serve dinner to the passengers?
The passengers—oh yes, the passengers.
You noticed the line of them coming aboard—
the businessmen, the young mothers
with the children in tow, the old couple,
the two priests, the four dogfaces.

A thousand times you have watched them
file aboard and a thousand times disembark.


They always seem a little gayer after the landing
than before the take-off. Beyond doubt
they are always somewhat apprehensive aloft.
But why do they continuously come up here
in the dark sky despite their apprehension?
You have often wondered about that.
You look down at your hands again
and suddenly it comes to you.

They come because they trust you—
you the pilot. They turn over their lives
and their loved ones and their hopes and dreams
to you for safekeeping.
To be a pilot means to be one of the trusted.
They pray in the storm
that you are skillful and strong and wise.
To be a pilot is to hold life in your hands—
to be worthy of faith.

No, you have not been robbed.
You aren’t "just a pilot." There is no such thing
as "just a pilot." Your job is a trust.
The years have been a trust.
You have been one of the trusted.
Who could be more?
__________________
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Last edited by Lost in Saigon on Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Morry Bund
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Morry Bund »

Janszoon wrote:Don't expect the younger generation to enjoy cleaning up the older generation's mess.
Forgive me, but haven't you just done what I suggested that most people do? Haven't you just answered the question in a "we-they" form, when "we-they" is irrelevant?

Let me ask the question again, in a different way. Why focus on right or wrong? Does it make any difference at all who did what, who will win and who will lose, or why the change is coming, if the change is going to happen anyway?

Shouldn't the focus be aimed at dealing with the consequences rather than at pointing fingers? Are we not missing an opportunity to manage our future by focusing exclusively on the past? I am not suggesting that any one way is better than another, except to say that I find many here are looking in the rear view mirror, rather than navigating.

Humbly submitted for your consideration.
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Janszoon
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Janszoon »

Morry Bund wrote:I find many here are looking in the rear view mirror, rather than navigating.
The people doing the navigating are the people who will benefit from the changes in direction, the baby-boomers. They need more pension money? Up the taxes and raise tuition fees! The younger generations have been coping with it and trying to move on, but the ones navigating are heaping more and more on their shoulders to keep the good times rolling. There does exist an us-and-them dynamic where one side is calling the shots for their own benefit while ignoring the needs of the other. I can't wait to start supporting the millions of baby-boomers in the already over-worked health care system in the coming years... I'm sure they'll enact a law that gives preferential treatment to those 70 and over before treating those pesky youngings.

I'm ranting now, but that's how I see things. What to do? Well, the ones making the decisions will tell the rest of us what to do, and according to some, we should just move forward and accept our fate quietly. Job opportunities being taken away? Delay in career advancement? Lower wages? Par for the course. I should bow to every baby-boomer I see, as my fate is in their hands. I should focus too on dealing with the consequences, like paying off my school debt for years to come, witnessing people in senior positions hold on to wages I will never attain and thereby causing my wages to be slashed to keep theirs flowing, sacrificing family time to work longer hours, and witnessing my taxes go up and up to pay for the over-burdened health care system in coming years. While I focus on those things I'll be content in the knowledge that some win and some lose, and it's just our generation's time to lose and the baby-boomers to win once again. Oh well, shucks, too bad for us I suppose. Move along people, nothing to see here. Here's another couple-grand mom and dad to help you in your retirement. Oh don't worry, I'll get by. I don't want you to give up your lifestyle just for me. You deserve the best. I couldn't ask you to sacrifice for me, that's absurd!
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Morry Bund
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Morry Bund »

Janszoon wrote:The people doing the navigating are the people who will benefit from the changes in direction, the baby-boomers.
There are all sorts of reports in the media that the political participation rates of the younger voters are at all-time lows. That could be an alternative explanation for why you predict that it is the baby-boomers who will determine the political priorities in the next few years.

You have given a rather complete explanation of the more macroscopic issues involved here, but my purpose in making my original post was more microscopic. How are we Air Canada pilots responding to the dynamics of the issue? Should we not be accepting the realities, instead of focusing our energies on things that we cannot change? Should we not be discussing how we get through this difficult process of adjustment in accepting the impending removal of age limits, and focus our energies on where we are ultimately going? I pose this as a legitimate, genuine question. How are we going to move forward? United, or forever divided?

As I see it, there is a huge fracture in our membership that can only cause us further grief, should we not start the process of healing and adjustment as soon as possible.
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Rockie
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Rockie »

Moribund

This debate has raged for several years now, and for the most part those posting here that are opposed to change simply cannot get past their hatred for those instigating the change at Air Canada. They are unable to, as you put it, navigate into the future based on the actual situation.

The most disturbing part though is that our union is similarly incapable of navigating into the future based on the actual situation. They continue to conduct themselves according to what they think should happen rather than what is actually happening.

We have been trying in vain to get them to deal with the reality, but it's a tough hill to climb.
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Rockie
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Re: Why in the world???

Post by Rockie »

the original tony wrote:I read the reasons above and think it must be terrible to loose all your money, kids in school and everything all at once.
I need to work longer, sure I get that.
At what point do you have enough? Really?
Is it that you need the money or just want it.
Where is the line between what you need and what you want? Can you retire on a few million in the bank, a few hundred thousand. Or just a pension?
Your wants unfortunately don't out weigh the NEEDS of people making a fraction of your retirement pay. This is reality. Greed is reality.
I just can't take a guy seriously who mentions working for the REAL financial reasons mentioned above and in the same breath tell his buddy that he's on a much needed vacation to Europe.
Need and want,
Happy New Year and best of luck to all who NEED a job, really.
I can think of lots of people who need your job more than you do Tony. They'll be very happy to hear you volunteered to quit in order to make room for them.
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