Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.

[Cookie.Quan]

Like some people that frequent this topic, I wondered if the Air Canada hiring process is unfair. My suspicions focused around questions 23 and 24 of the skills and questions section of the online application. Question 23 asks have you been awarded an aviation diploma\degree from a college\university program. If you clicked yes, you are then asked in question 24 to identify which institution you received your diploma\degree from. Out of all the places you can learn to fly in this country, why are there only eight places listed on the application? As I have learned, when you click off one of these boxes you receive an extra 15 points on the application point system. This allows individuals from these programs to have their resume pulled earlier than someone who did not learn to fly at these particular places. For example, an individual who received an undergrad in engineering and later goes on to obtain a masters in the same field, while learning to fly at a flying club or an institution not listed on the application, would get less points then an individual who learned to fly at Selkirk college. This is just a two year program in learning to fly a plane. Essentially, it is no different than going to a local flying club and taking lessons. Seems a bit odd! I thought nothing of it for a while until I started to see individuals from my own company resign and go to Air Canada. The last six people who left my company all had something in common. They all attended one of these aviation programs. As my suspicions started to grow, I began to ask questions about who made up the application. I found out that this application was put together by the three directors. These directors were appointed by the Senior VP of Operations (http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/bio/legge.html). If they designed the application why would they only focus on certain schools? Last time I checked, there are numerous places you can learn to fly across the country where you may acquire a pilot license. According to Transport Canada we are all held to a similar standard. I do not believe that pilots from the selected eight programs receive superior training compared to anyone else taking lessons. Nor could you assume that these pilots have a better understanding of aerodynamics compared the aerospace engineer from U of T or received more exposure to accounting/economics than a business grad from Queens of Laurier. Canada is home to some of the best universities in the entire world and it seems a bit odd that there is no emphasis on acquiring an education in business, science or going on to obtain a masters degree. I am not talking about a sociology or political science. The exclusion of the following in the application process points back to the directors who created the current application. Revisiting the fact that the vast majority of people from my company who went to Air Canada fall in to one of the eight programs leads me to believe that there is some connection between the directors and the eight programs. After researching on the internet I stumbled upon exhibit A which is one of the directors linked in profiles. As he clearly states, he is a graduate of Selkirk College. Now we see why Selkirk College Aviation Program made it on the list of eight. It is not because they produce the best pilots and not because there was a nationwide study stating Selkirk College is the best place to learn how to fly. It is only because this director happened to take a two year course at Selkirk College learning to fly airplanes. What a coincidence! I thought the whole idea of having this rigorous/exact/precise/meticulous/money wasting hiring process was to make it fair for everyone. It seems a little bias.

I think that every person who applies to Air Canada with suitable time and qualifications deserves to be given a chance regardless of what flight school\club they learned at. Unfortunately, there have been many people that haven’t been given the honest chance they deserve.

Exhibit A:

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[Norwegianwood]

Well done Cookie, you have done a stellar job in your research only to find you have arrived at the "old boy's (girl's) club".
Welcome to the AC way of doing things. "We've been doing it like that since 1937"
Yikes.....That long....................
NW

[bcflyer]

I have to admit its been a while since I applied at AC but in the past you were definitely given credit for a university degree. I highly doubt that a diploma from an aviation program will get you more points than a university degree.

While we're on that topic, where did you get your information regarding the number of points issued for a college diploma? Do you have the complete points breakdown for every criteria?

[chancellor]

I actually chatted with someone from the hiring side as this was coming out. There is apparently a considerable amount of flight schools that are calling themselves accredited university institutions that are in fact not. And this became the way of taking care of the problem from AC's standpoint. The company established which ones were accredited and made the list. I would imagine if you have a degree from a actual university or college it shouldn't hold you back.

[AUGER9]

Just wondering, are these the eight?

http://caac.ca/1english.htm

[Mig29]

I sure hope so Auger

[The People's Pilot]

Curious to know how you found out the points breakdown?

I've spoken to one of the directors and the hiring manager and they have explicitly stated that the bare minimum at the moment is "post secondary education." So an aviation diploma is equal to an engineering degree when it comes to fulfilling this requirement.

Also I know someone who just got hired and a couple more with forthcoming interviews who have degrees but did their flight training privately.

[Cookie.Quan]

Curious to know how you found out the points breakdown?

I've spoken to one of the directors and the hiring manager and they have explicitly stated that the bare minimum at the moment is "post secondary education." So an aviation diploma is equal to an engineering degree when it comes to fulfilling this requirement.

Also I know someone who just got hired and a couple more with forthcoming interviews who have degrees but did their flight training privately.

So if community college is seen on par with engineering, then why are there only eight aviation programs on Air Canada’s application where you can receive an extra 15 points? It makes no sense. Canada is not made of just eight selected schools. That Director and hiring manager neglected to include spots for all of the other aviation colleges across the country. AC has forgotten all the world-class universities. Those universities should be given an extra 15 points to make them equal. Did the Director consider those with a Masters degree or a PhD?

Thus when you write that all post secondary education is covered and considered I clearly don’t believe you and I definitely don’t believe the Directors.
How can you group someone with a community college aviation diploma like, Selkirk College with another applicant who has achieved aerospace engineering degree accompanied with a Master’s? Do you understand how much work goes into achieving such degrees? Clearly you don’t. You don’t make sense. That Director does not make sense. Must be the AC way since 1937.

If many of you believe I am wrong and the Director’s are right then they should come out with a points break down of the entire application point system. If the Director’s state the all college and all university are equal, there should be no problem. Everybody who has applied deserves an equal chance and the Director’s should put their money where their mouth is and prove that everyone is getting an equal chance.

..By the way Air Force guys get no extra points. What a surprise!

…Oh, the Director that I singled out in my original post also has a connection to Seneca College. Funny, that one is on the list too. Still no engineering or business programs though.

For those who want to inquire about this little predicament I suggest going to someone other than the Senior VP of Operations (http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/bio/legge.html). Pretty sure he doesn’t know what is going on. Maybe someone should tell him.

[HuD 91gt]

I bet if you looked at the fail rate of said colleges you may realize these courses are more difficult then your average diploma course. These are also the colleges which Jazz accepts as direct entry. They are tested, tried and true.

I'm not saying it's right, but there is a reason why they are well known across the country.

[The People's Pilot]

Not sure how you are going to get private enterprise to disclose their hiring methods, but that would be interesting to see how it all works. By the way you still haven't explained how you heard and/or know that those eight specific schools get 15 extra points and ex AF guys get nothing. Those are pretty specific numbers you are quoting.

You do realize there are hundreds of ex-AF guys/gals at the company right? I find it hard to believe they received no points for that, because they typically have far fewer hours than anyone in the civilian world. Unless you were being sarcastic, hard to tell with your statement.

If you are so adamant that degrees are valued less than college aviation programs how did the following person get hired:
4000TT
500 FO 705
2000 MPIC Turbine 704
Engineering Degree (Canadian University)
CPL/MIFR Privately completed.

[vic777]

As I have learned, when you click off one of these boxes you receive an extra 15 points on the application point system. This allows individuals from these programs to have their resume pulled earlier than someone who did not learn to fly at these particular places.

If you are correct about this, then I guess that your conclusion that the hiring process is unfair is also correct.

[Cookie.Quan]

I bet if you looked at the fail rate of said colleges you may realize these courses are more difficult then your average diploma course. These are also the colleges which Jazz accepts as direct entry. They are tested, tried and true.

I'm not saying it's right, but there is a reason why they are well known across the country.

Did you not read my post?

I think that every person who applies to Air Canada with suitable time and qualifications deserves to be given a chance regardless of what flight school\club they learned at. Unfortunately, there have been many people that haven’t been given the honest chance they deserve.

As I stated in my original post, I believe anyone that applies to Air Canada deserves an equal and fair chance regardless of where they learned how to fly.  Hence the point of this topic. Eight places receive extra points while everyone else gets none.  I did not want to travel down this road again but if you high school grads with commercial pilots licenses insist, I am more then willing.


If you find community college difficult, there is no way you should go near a motor vehicle let alone an airplane.  The level of difficulty of some of the programs in universities are at a level you would not even understand.  These college aviation programs are on an academic level well below that of grade 12.  Or so I've been told by some of the grads.  Last time I checked, the Air Force does not take direct entry pilots from community college. Last time I checked the Canadian Space Agency does not take direct entry astronauts from these college aviation programs.  If you had attended university, you would realise how many smart people are out there.  Also ask yourself this: how many community college grads from these aviation programs have run banks or investment firms?  How many of them are research doctors working to cure a disease?  I don't think there is any.

As I stated on another topic, you have absolutely no education.  You took flying lessons.  You did nothing that would even come close to comparing with a physics grad from Queens, or a chemistry grad from UBC, or an actuarial science grad from Western.  Have fun trying to figure out what actuarial science is because I know you have know clue.  Yet, you found community college flying lessons hard and there is a chance they are going to put you on a three hundred million dollar airplane with over three-hundred people.  Why oh why would the Directors not want to choose an individual with twice the time you have and on top of that multiple degrees?  With all the qualified /educated people that have applied and been rejected by the Directors, your post just helps to prove my point about the hiring process being completely screwed up.  Really, you found community college flying lesson hard?  Should anyone inform the flying public about this? Trust that there are much harder things out there.

By posting this reply, people can now see where that certain Director might have picked up his  childish, insecure, narrow-minded attitude, which happened to be translated onto the Air Canada application.  "But Selkirk college flying lessons were hard".  Pft.

At the end of the day I am curious why those people who invested so heavily in there education, a lot of which is well over my head, are not receiving the recognition they deserve.  Let's face it, there are very few of us that can achieve what an engineer achieves academically.  It's tough!  So are a lot of other programs.

For those people that care about the point system, why not ask the Directors how many points you get for speaking French?  The answer is zero!  

[Cookie.Quan]

By the way you still haven't explained how you heard and/or know that those eight specific schools get 15 extra points and ex AF guys get nothing. Those are pretty specific numbers you are quoting.

If you are so certain how the point system works, why don't you explain it on this thread for everybody to read. You are the one who claimed to be talking to a Director who explained the application point system.
As in one of my previous replies, I called out the Directors and asked them to post the application point system break down publicly for everyone to see. Also keep in mind that this is a quasi-government organization and as a minority I understand you receive extra points for clicking off boxes pertaining to the Employment Equity Act. I will just come out and say it, you still have to hire your quota.

[North Shore]

Ok, dude, we get it...you have an engineering degree, you don't speak french, you weren't in the airforce, and you didn't get hired. Suck it up, buttercup, reapply in 6 months, and maybe you'll make it then.

Better hope for a widebody position, though, because otherwise between the skipper, you, and the huge chip on your shoulder, it'll get real crowded up in the front end...

[thrust set]

Cookie,

Didn't want to bite on this topic, but you seem to have convinced yourself of and believe in something you know nothing about.
Since the hiring began again in 2011 there has been a lot of movement from  pilots within Canada. I will say the majority have come to Air Canada with some form of post secondary education. Here is a list of where 85% of the successful candidates came from:
Mount Royal
University of North Dakota
Moncton Flight College
Chicoutimi
University of Guelph
Sault College
Canadian Military
Seneca
Carleton University
Ecole Polytech
Ryerson
Selkirk 
Nova Scotia Community College
Acadia University
Confederation College
University of Toronto
Coastal Pacific
Fraser Valley
University of Western Ont.
University of Victoria
University of Florida
UBC
McGill 
University of Manitoba
Red River Community College

From my list I missed a few post secondary schools but you get the point. What I think you are upset about is a large number of pilots coming from Sault, Seneca, and Mount Royal college. These places have demanding programs and supply Air Canada with a proven product.

Cheers and good luck.

[RB211]

Ok, dude, we get it...you have an engineering degree, you don't speak french, you weren't in the airforce, and you didn't get hired. Suck it up, buttercup, reapply in 6 months, and maybe you'll make it then.

Better hope for a widebody position, though, because otherwise between the skipper, you, and the huge chip on your shoulder, it'll get real crowded up in the front end...

Well said. Maybe arrogance shows through on the application and points are deducted!

[vic777]

At the end of the day I am curious why those people who invested so heavily in there education,

A spell checker will not catch everything ....

[again]

Cookie -
Choosing candidates based on where they graduated school is not discriminatory; it is Air Canada's right to chose who they want to fill the seats in their cockpits. Hiring a candidate who went to Sault over one who went to Moncton is no more discriminatory than hiring a candidate who flew Jetstreams instead of 1900s.

Maybe it was the psych test?

[AUGER9]

At the end of the day I am curious why those people who invested so heavily in there education,

A spell checker will not catch everything ....

Apparently the University of Genius couldn't teach him that one

[JVK]

Also ask yourself this: how many community college grads from these aviation programs have run banks or investment firms? How many of them are research doctors working to cure a disease? I don't think there is any.

Do you go to Home Depot to buy beer, and the Beer Store to buy lumber? These college grads wanted to become airline pilots, not bankers or doctors or even plumbers or electricians. Quite often the courses at these colleges start with 75-80 students from various backgrounds; highschool grads, accountants, BSc.eng, etc ranging in age from 19 to 30 years of age. As the program continues over 2-3 years there is constant checking and evaluation (get it right the first or second time, not the pat on the back and we'll see you tomorrow for some more practice that you get at the local flying club) meaning the class will usually graduate with 50% or less remaining.

Why does AC hire from these colleges? It seems to me that a selection process has already been accomplished, with applicants that have other post secondary training for which you speak. Not to mention, these colleges have steering committees with seats from the likes of Westjet, Air Canada, Jazz so that their product is tailored to the eventual end user. Did Air Canada visit your local flying club to check standards?

I can't help but notice the duplicity in your statements. If there was a box that could be ticked that awarded you 20 points per university degree I'm sure we would hear no complaints!

JVK