AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

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LeadingEdge
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by LeadingEdge »

You heard a bad rumour... The grievance is on going.

LE
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bearinmind
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by bearinmind »

vic777 wrote:
bearinmind wrote: Voter opinion is the only way to a negotiated contract.
What are you smoking?
look at the last 2 contracts that they settled. You cant deny the force behind how the contracts are settled. The only thing an MP understands is popular opinion/re-election. This Anti union attitude can only be stopped by union membership motivating the MP's. Its realy the only way. Our negotiators are powerless against the government.

Follow the money. The MEC will give up the sky regional grievience because its a zero cost to pursue for the MEC but a big cost for the company. They will give it up to get concessions from the company and call it a win.
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Mig29
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Mig29 »

LeadingEdge wrote:What are you so scared of??

No growth vs $hitty growth. Better yet sell out the bottom 2/3rd's to protect the top, thats what TA1 was really about.

You seem to think that the Co can break the law. Sky regional will be shut down or there will be a negotiated settlement, but either way AC will pay. So suck it up boys, no body respects you when you don't respect yourself.
You got that right LE! Some people will rather hope for a pathetic growth so they can maybe move few spots up or get that bottom captain spot, instead of huddling down for time being and wait for better times and better choices....

I still believe this LCC will kill the pilot group down the road and will spiral downwards the entire industry. Jazz, WJ, AT and little tier 3 feeders will all suffer if this thing is up and running in full force. Forget your clause and your protection rights, when loads go up on this LCC and the mainline starts to "bleed" (naturally as passengers will go for cheaper option) what do you think AC management is going to tell??? That you can just relax and operate the mainline fleet until the loads go to zero as they HAVE to honor their side of the bargain and protect your fleet scope??? Come one, don't be silly, they will corner you in (as always) and give you an option that your MEC won't be able to refuse??? Sky regional is up and running for how long already? And it's a minor bump that union still can't seem to get rid of, let alone a fleet of up to 50 jets once they are up and running.....
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the AK
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by the AK »

did you actually fly a MiG? i have
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vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

bearinmind wrote:You cant deny the force behind how the contracts are settled.
Work stoppage is the only way to make gains.
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Re: Dear what_the?

Post by Old fella »

ratherbee wrote:LE,

I am afraid your comments are the ones that are misguided and "uniformed."

LCC's are a reality and are not going away. Legacy carriers are a thing of the past but can survive if they adapt successfuly to change by carving out a successful niche. How about the "Best Airline in North America?" However, they will not grow and will more likely shrink. If ACPA wants growth for the junior pilots then they will have to look towards an LCC.

We can't hide behind the Code. After the Concilliation process is over and the cooling off period is done, so is the present contract, possibly including Article 1. Common Employer rules, and the right to follow work are not slam dunks by any means and are unlikely to succeed if NewCo is set up properly.

Nothing else to sell? Have you forgotten about our pensions and new legislation that allows them to be undone avoiding CCAA?

The tragedy will be if we don't get an LCC. No growth, no retirements for five years, loss of revenue and loss of opportunity.

The truth hurts but especially for the future of our junior pilots and new hires.

I remember quite clearly early 80's, that upstart called Peoples Express which was to put all those legacy carriers to rest, the days of the unions were finished - the new era, get on the bandwagon. Much was written those days suggesting very few if any survivors amongst the new wave wreckage. Funny though, names like Delta, Continental, American,USA etc are still around(in some shape/form), granted some are not(PanAm, TWA, Braniff). The ole Canadian Maple Leaf carrier's name even came up but some others(CPA,WardAir) fell down. Carriers with a long survival history will get through it all, I suspect Air Canada will be one of those, no doubt.

All the best in 2012
OF :partyman:
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TheStig
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by TheStig »

Mig29 wrote:
LeadingEdge wrote:What are you so scared of??

No growth vs $hitty growth. Better yet sell out the bottom 2/3rd's to protect the top, thats what TA1 was really about.

You seem to think that the Co can break the law. Sky regional will be shut down or there will be a negotiated settlement, but either way AC will pay. So suck it up boys, no body respects you when you don't respect yourself.
You got that right LE! Some people will rather hope for a pathetic growth so they can maybe move few spots up or get that bottom captain spot, instead of huddling down for time being and wait for better times and better choices....

I still believe this LCC will kill the pilot group down the road and will spiral downwards the entire industry. Jazz, WJ, AT and little tier 3 feeders will all suffer if this thing is up and running in full force. Forget your clause and your protection rights, when loads go up on this LCC and the mainline starts to "bleed" (naturally as passengers will go for cheaper option) what do you think AC management is going to tell??? That you can just relax and operate the mainline fleet until the loads go to zero as they HAVE to honor their side of the bargain and protect your fleet scope??? Come one, don't be silly, they will corner you in (as always) and give you an option that your MEC won't be able to refuse??? Sky regional is up and running for how long already? And it's a minor bump that union still can't seem to get rid of, let alone a fleet of up to 50 jets once they are up and running.....
MiG29 you seem like a nice enough person so I'm not trying to throw any mud here, but once again, there is no LCC. It was a negotiating tactic that most of the pilots saw through. A Jazz Pilot telling Air Canada Pilots how their lives as they know it are doomed, falls under one of two proverbial categories:
-The pot calling the kettle black, or
-One who lives in a glass house throwing stones

Everything you've stated above may have been true had TA1 been instituted, it wasn't. ACPA's membership has moved beyond the first TA.

The Pilot groups priorities are:
-Pension security
-Wages and Working Conditions

Air Canada's (are likely)
-Addressing the pension plan
-Reducing training costs
-Increasing productivity

Certainly don't have a crystal ball, but the pension deficit will likely be addressed as that is a common concern. Both groups would love to see the airline grow and prosper, but don't expect the pilots to take wage concessions under the delusion that it is their salaries prohibiting the airline from doing so.
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Mig29
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Mig29 »

TheStig wrote:
MiG29 you seem like a nice enough person so I'm not trying to throw any mud here, but once again, there is no LCC. It was a negotiating tactic that most of the pilots saw through. A Jazz Pilot telling Air Canada Pilots how their lives as they know it are doomed, falls under one of two proverbial categories:
-The pot calling the kettle black, or
-One who lives in a glass house throwing stones

Everything you've stated above may have been true had TA1 been instituted, it wasn't. ACPA's membership has moved beyond the first TA.

The Pilot groups priorities are:
-Pension security
-Wages and Working Conditions

Air Canada's (are likely)
-Addressing the pension plan
-Reducing training costs
-Increasing productivity

Certainly don't have a crystal ball, but the pension deficit will likely be addressed as that is a common concern. Both groups would love to see the airline grow and prosper, but don't expect the pilots to take wage concessions under the delusion that it is their salaries prohibiting the airline from doing so.

Hey Stig, I am not taking anything personal in what you said, because you say it in a polite and diplomatic way without disrespect. I don not if you were addressing directly myself or just in general, but I truly mean AC folks all the best and I don not want them to go out of business like some of the people I worked with and who truly hate this company and would love to see 26,000 people lose their jobs!

I just stated that pilot group should fight really hard NOT to allow this LCC and you did bring a very good point. This LCC was maybe just smoke'n mirrors as it could be just another curve ball company tried to throw to diverge member's attention and their focus on what really matters in the proposed contract.

All the best to you and all folks at AC in 2012!

ps. this doesn't mean I'm the biggest fan of AC management. By the way, we all know that Schumacher is not the real Stig....so who is it?? :lol:
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vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

TheStig wrote: Air Canada's (are likely)
-Addressing the pension plan
Hmmm, FlyPast60 ... maybe
-Reducing training costs
Hmmm, FlyPast60 ... maybe
-Increasing productivity
Hmmm, FlyPast60 ... maybe

How many hundreds of millions of dollars does AC reap thru FlyPast60? Has anyone at ACPA Headquarters even wondered about this? How much of this will ACPA get for the troops?
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duranium
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by duranium »

vic777 wrote

''How many hundreds of millions of dollars does AC reap thru FlyPast60? Has anyone at ACPA Headquarters even wondered about this? How much of this will ACPA get for the troops?''


From what was posted here from very learned pilots opposing Flying past 60, not much if you beleive them. What a crying shame for all of you. You could have served yourselves a pretty nice raise with with some of those '' non '' savings. Just thinking of all the funds AC would not have to contribute if pilots took their pension at a later date in life. Pension deficit ( for pilots ) gone, AC on a very much improved financial footing, take your pick.

Anyway, flying past 60 for all of you will be reality in less than 365 days. Hope you can ajust to the new way of doing things because, all of you on both sides of the equation are now BIG LOSERS , once again, what a crying shame
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Mig29
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Mig29 »

150 Qantas Pilots to take Unpaid Leave
PCC Daily News for Pilots
January 4, 2012

SYDNEY, Australia - Qantas Airways Ltd. said around 150 of its 2,000 pilots have elected to take unpaid leave, some to fly with rivals, after it cut services to stem losses at its struggling international flights unit.

The continued letting of pilots by Australia's flag carrier comes as the airline industry faces persistent global economic uncertainty and higher fuel costs, but will entrench divisions with labor unions concerned that Qantas is tarnishing its premium brand by focusing on lower-cost offshoots.

Some of the pilots have been told they can fly with rival airlines, including Middle Eastern carriers such as Emirates.

"This is not an uncommon practice for Qantas and we have done so before when capacity has been reduced, such as during the global financial crisis," a Qantas spokeswoman said in an emailed statement.

The most recent offers of unpaid leave or employment with rivals were announced last year by the pilot's union, which said Emirates had offered in July to take pilots from Qantas for a period of three years.

The airline may still have a surplus of around 400 pilots over the next few years, but this number could vary depending on whether it allocates incoming new Boeing 787-8 aircraft to Qantas International or low-cost offshoot Jetstar, Australian International Pilots Association President Barry Jackson said.

"With respect, they're playing games with young pilots' careers," Mr. Jackson said. "A lot of young guys' prospects of a command post with Qantas are fast disappearing into the horizon with the grace of these partly owned subsidiaries."

Sydney-based Qantas in August inflamed tensions with unions representing pilots, engineers and baggage handlers by announcing 1,000 job cuts and plans to establish a new premium subsidiary in either Singapore or Malaysia and a low-cost joint venture in Japan. Protracted strike action by engineers and baggage handlers prompted it to ground its entire fleet for a few days in October, forcing the government to stop all industrial action and lead the parties into binding arbitration.

The airline is attempting to lower its cost base, which it says is up to 20% higher than rivals, to try and turn around an international unit it says lost more than A$200 million (US$206.9 million) in the year to June 30.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Fanblade »

If arbitration happens?

Other than the government possibly padding TA1 in favor of the company in the legislation, as they did with CUPW and Canada Post , it is extremely unlike either party will be able to extract themselves from the terms agreed to in the memorandum of agreement of last spring.

If someone is telling you different they either believe arbitration can be avoided, or they are full of it.
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ratherbee
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by ratherbee »

Not necessarily FanBlade,

If ACPA drops the old "we want everything and we want it now" offer on the table, that would allow AC to offer up a new version of what they want the pilots to work under. In other words, if ACPA walks away from TA1 then AC can too, if they want.

If TA1 materializes in any way at all, it will likely be much less than was agreed to last spring.

It looks like the horizon is fading on getting a good contract.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Fanblade »

You don't understand the Canada labor code.

If this ends in arbitration it is almost guaranteed to end with TA1 imposed. It is a fact. There is very little room for the arbitrator to do anything else.

Doing what you infer AC might do is bargaining in bad faith. It is called receding horizons and is against the law. In fact ACPA is flirting with this as we speak. Deliberately widening the gap, adding costs, on something that has been agreed on is bargaining in bad faith.

I suspect we will see a bargaining in bad faith complaint against ACPA shortly. This will be followed by the CIRB ordering arbitration. Followed by imposition of TA1.

The only way to see ACPA loose the LCC flying is through negotiation. Not likely.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Ah_yeah »

Auditioning for a job in the office Fanblade ? :lol:
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DrBoeing
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by DrBoeing »

[/quote]
Certainly don't have a crystal ball, but the pension deficit will likely be addressed as that is a common concern. Both groups would love to see the airline grow and prosper, but don't expect the pilots to take wage concessions under the delusion that it is their salaries prohibiting the airline from doing so.[/quote]

I disagree, management does not give a rats behind how the airline does, they are all here short term and are here to line their pockets and then move on.
When you have inclusions in your contract that guarantee a bonus regardless of how well or poor the company is doing, there is ZERO incentive to make things better or profitable. These execs are just riding the wave and when this house of cards comes crumbling down later this year, they will walk away with their golden parachute and tell the media that once again it is the UNIONS fault, just like Milton back in 2003.
This whole LCC is just a ploy for AC to be able to say that due to the inflexibility of the unions that they can no longer operate under the current structure and that due to the now growing pension deficit will require to restructure under CCAA. Does this sound familiar??? Calin Reallygonnascrewyou is already spewing the Milton diatribe of "the model is broken" Well if the model is broken, the Calin is incompetent as this current model is his design.
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vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

The Board of Directors and Air Canada Management has always had as their number one objective, the lining of their own pockets with the wealth created by Employees working their lifetimes to create. ACPA should down tools and say no one moves until the thievery stops. ACPA should demonstrate that Management corruption and ruinous Government fees are the disease.
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ratherbee
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by ratherbee »

It's great to see the conspiracy theorists get going when faced with the cold stare of reality. Blame it on the Board and the Exec's. If their pay structure is so good, do we want to be paid for performance and ability too? I doubt it. This is a simple diversion from the union to detract from their inability to get a good contract. Let's avoid the rhetoric and be more analytical for the greater good of the employees.

FB, I do understand the Code pretty well and I think you are mostly right. However, if ACPA and AC both agree to start over then who will file the complaint of bad faith bargaining? You and me?

ACPA's only advantage in starting from scratch is that it avoids admitting mistake. AC's advantage is that it can introduce the reality of the economy, increased pension deficit, and harsher competition.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Fanblade »

ratherbee wrote:.

FB, I do understand the Code pretty well and I think you are mostly right. However, if ACPA and AC both agree to start over then who will file the complaint of bad faith bargaining? You and me?
RB,

TA1 is a massive departure from the present contract. Massive. Everything from pension to working rules, groupings, bidding restrictions. The cost savings is huge even if you ignore the pension give. AC managed to convince the negotiations committee to make large leaps in departing their legacy contract.

For AC to play the starting over game with ACPA? You have to believe they are willing to walk away from the massive gains in TA1 and allow ACPA to legally reset its position back to the current Legacy contract, plus gains.

When all AC really needs to do is refuse to start over and from a legal perspective any negotiations start from where they left off. Sans the legacy contract.

Allowing ACPA to reset its bargaining position could prove to be a massive loss from TA1 in arbitration for AC.

I think we will see AC refuse to negotiate from anywhere other than where negotiations left off. Which of course they are legally entitled to do.
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rudder
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by rudder »

There is nothing in law that makes the contents of a rejected TA the relative starting point for any subsequent negotiation. That is why it is called a 'tentative' agreement. However, AC has the prerogative to dig it's heels in at the bargaining table. But in making that decision it must consider the possible consequences. I suspect that the parties likely disagree on possible consequences given the complete upheaval in the normal course of collective bargaining due to the interventionist Minister of Labour. What happened with the CAW strike was a travesty. What happened with CUPE was deserved due to ineptitude and dysfunction. It remains to be seen how ACPA plays its hand. The ACPA President has already made it clear that there will be no strike.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Fanblade »

t
rudder wrote:There is nothing in law that makes the contents of a rejected TA the relative starting point for any subsequent negotiation.
Rudder,

There is plenty of precedent that deliberatly widening the gap between agreed upon positions during negotiations, increasing cost, changing demands, is considered bargaining in bad faith. Remember in this case there is a canyon between where ACPA left off and now wants to retart.

But of course this is strategic on their part. However unless AC chooses to reset the starting position theshelves, they ave every right to demand TA1, or its approximate cost, is the starting place. If ACPA refuses, as they are now? AC will have every right to file a bargaining in bad faith complaint.

The last NC and MEC placed ACPA in a very weak position.
If this ends in arbitration TA1 (minus possibly some padding)will be the result.

I doubt very much AC will negotiate beyond conciliation as ACPA refuses to negotiate from TA1. It will be portrayed as ACPA's fault.

A bargaining in bad faith complaint is likely if ACPA stays the course.

The complaint will push the issue before the CIRB which could trigger the arbitration AC is likely seeking.

If that doesn't happen the company can trigger a crisis at will through lock out. In comes legislation putting the parties in arbitration.

Make no mistake about it. It will be a uphill battle for ACPA to extract itself from TA1.

I too will be interested in the strategy used over the coming weeks. ACPA's strategy must amount to more than just hoping AC negotiates.
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rudder
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by rudder »

I don't disagree that history shows that unions that let their internal dysfunction manifest itself in the bargaining process typically end up wearing the result of that dysfunction. AC had to believe that the bargaining committee placed in front of them by ACPA was bargaining in good faith and with the support of at least the accountable decision makers, if not the membership. We all know how that went.

There were actually some very good concepts captured in TA1. But there were also some very poor concepts (especially on the commercial side).

If a proper analysis has been completed by the new bargaining committee and their professional advisors, as well as a proper due diligence on AC as well as appropriate cost and efficiency comparisons, then bargaining direction should not be too much of an issue unless there are actually those that believe that status quo 'plus' is going to keep the doors open and the pension plan solvent.

Best of luck.
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Fanblade
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:......unless there are actually those that believe that status quo 'plus' is going to keep the doors open and the pension plan solvent.


Yes. Or at least that is the present position of the NC as stated to the membership.

How much is posturing? We will find out.

Even if ACPA negotiated from TA1 I doubt the company would move much if at all. Why would they in this political environment when TA1 is there for the taking through imposed arbitration. Might even get it padded.

Just stating it as I see it. The deck looks stacked IMO.

It will be interesting to see ACPA's strategy as this plays out.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

The obvious solution is different representation through a different Union. Walk away from the ACPA debts.
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LeadingEdge
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by LeadingEdge »

Fanblade is wrong on several counts. The original renegotiation of the contract was done outside of the normal, legally binding, process. TA1 was not recommended by ACPA. Because it was conceived outside of normal bargaining, it has no legal value. For the CIRB to impose a contract that was not recommended by the association, and that was turned down aggressively by the membership is inviting legal action.

LE
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