Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

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rudder
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by rudder »

Localizer wrote:Mig29, your missing the point my friend. Whatever happens to the rest of us is just fine, as long as those at the top keep their pay, pension, working conditions .. etc. As for the rest of us .. they don't really care .. OH .. just contribute to keeping their pension funded, that's your only duty.

Sarcasm aside .. I'd just like an honest answer as to what makes you, fly past 60 so special? Why shouldn't the other pilots enjoy the same opportunity to progress in pay, seniority and eventually the ability to retire at a decent age? Why should other career's be put on hold for the sake of those who enjoyed the best this industry had to offer? (notice had) Nobody on this forum can really answer that question .. the music eventually stops for all of us, the least you can say is "I enjoyed it while it lasted" and bow out with the respect of your peers .. just like those before you, and those still to come.

Cheers.
If you want to level the playing field legally........then go to status pay for WB fleet. The 777 will take a pay cut/no grandfathering. Redistribute the wealth as you see fit. You could also reallocate Capt pay to increase FO pay on the WB. Lots of options, but what will pass in a vote?
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Understated
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Understated »

Localizer wrote:Mig29, your missing the point my friend. Whatever happens to the rest of us is just fine, as long as those at the top keep their pay, pension, working conditions .. etc. As for the rest of us .. they don't really care .. OH .. just contribute to keeping their pension funded, that's your only duty. Sarcasm aside .. I'd just like an honest answer as to what makes you, fly past 60 so special?
A few years ago I took an intro course in Psych. One of the "experiments" in the course textbook involved perception. The psychologists reversed one of the nerves leading to the optic chiasma (or something) in a chicken, so that what the chicken thought it saw with its left eye was actually the image from its right eye, and vice versa. Then they gave the chicken some food. Peck away as it would, it could never learn that the image in its brain was reversed, that the food was on the other side of its head. It eventually starved, and had to be destroyed.

You, Localizer, are the one missing the point about what is happening here. You are not seeing what is before your eyes, and you are blaming everyone but yourself for your perceptual problem and self-destructive focus.

Yes, I am in favour of this change to end mandatory retirement. I believe that it had to come, given the recent changes in the rest of the country, given the improvement in our lifespan and given the need to have people continue to contribute to their own income for a longer period of time, rather than being forced to receive their income from their own past contributions and from the rest of the shrinking working population that has to make up the defined benefit pension plan shortfalls. It was inevitable.

But even if I were deadly against ending mandatory retirement, I could not have done anything to prevent it from happening!

So please, stop blaming me and the rest of us for something over which we have no control. Move on. Try to see if you can work with the existing set of circumstances in a meaningful way that somehow bridges the deep, deep cracks in the makeup of our Association. Focus on the runway ahead of you, not the runway behind you.
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Mig29
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Mig29 »

Vic,

is that the best you can offer?? Aside from the typical "it's the Law"?!?

It shows so much empathy for your colleagues, that I bet it will be returned with the same generosity when the time and opportunity comes. I am not wishing for it in any way, but that's the "program" we'll be all watching few years ahead...

Best of luck guys, hope this sh$#$t works out for everyone....

Cheers
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Ah_yeah »

On a semi serious note, are you guys sure you want to come back to this gong show ? I'm thinking a guy named Madoff in an orange jumpsuit is running this place.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Rockie »

Ah_yeah wrote:On a semi serious note, are you guys sure you want to come back to this gong show ? I'm thinking a guy named Madoff in an orange jumpsuit is running this place.
You may have a point there. It's looking more and more like our benevolent employer want to put us all on the street for good regardless of our age.
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777longhaul
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by 777longhaul »

So, do any of you want to play what if?

What if, some of the posters here on this specific issue, are not AC pilots, or are not even airline pilots/employees,

Maybe they are, and maybe they are not.

Maybe they work somewhere else, or go to school, or they are based overseas, or they work for the armed services, or they are in some dark hole, bored.

If....you want to see what any poster has ever posted, in condensed format, to make your own opinions, go to the one of the various sites. It is important to select the other airlines, not just Air Canada.

MAIN TAB

Air Canada
West Jet
Jazz

TOP RH CORNER

Search button--select

SEARCH FOR AUTHORS

Type in any poster(s) name

Just to change things up a bit.

There are multiple pages, so look at the bottom of the first page, and select the next page(s). Some have many pages.

Also, I dont know how to tell if they are posting from another airline, (not listed above) or are just throwing in their time, and thoughts, opinions, bs, on this subject that doesnt affect them, or their friends, family, spouse, working roomate, sig other, etc. from the water cooler at their office, or their bedroom desk, or their school room.

What ever........so, I tried a few times. Here is one example of many from many different posters on this subject of FP60 at Air Canada.Sample search:

Search Author: Mig29

Post subject: Seniority and ReservePosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:47 am
Posts: 796 Ok, so I gotta a question guys...I am not working for AC/Jazz/WJ but would like to know how do you guys deal with this situation?

You have two guys on reserve...(A is more senior to B guy), and A guy is on a single day while guy B is on a multi-day reserve. Crewsked has an open TWO-DAY pairing and up until now used to call guys in order of seniority. Now, they decide to call junior guy B and assign him the pairing because he is on a multi-day reserve. A guy doesn't even get a phone call or a CHOICE because they feel they would have to draft him for day 2 if he chooses to work that pairing.

Is this fair or right?? What's the point of seniority?

Thanks in advance, just curious to know what your guys to...?

======================================================================================

or another random search same author:Post subject: Re: No more Age 60 forced Retirement at Air Canada ???Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:59 am

Mig29


Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:47 am
Posts: 796 I am not near 60, but you can say that I am getting close to the half mark....I don't work for the big red or baby red, but hope one day I will....And if I don't...well so be it. But I refuse to see my self operating an aircraft at this pace and at this life style until 65!! Heck, I'd like to see my self retire at 50 if I can....I understand some of you love this job, so much in fact, that you can't see yourself doing anything else. That's fine, but that's not me...and as long as there are people like you and me, this world will not become boring:)

I come from a different mentality, where LIFE takes presedence over WORK, where you plan life outside (not around) work, and use work to achieve certain things and goals in life. Yes, it should be rewarding, and yes we should enjoy it, but to make it your only way of living is like putting all your hopes in flying an F-18 when applying to the air force. I've seen to many good people, dying too early in this career, or soon after it ended. Yes, you can call it, unlucky or destiny, or just 'it was ment to be' but it saddens me to see these folks climb up so high in this career, and never get to enjoy their retirement with their families, grandchildren, friends....Life is too short, our PIC and jet times, aircraft ratings, seniority numbers will all come and go, but we only got one life...

I am all for older folks staynig with the company and passing on their knowledge and wisdome to young guys, but maybe in other capacities than flying the line until 65...or 60 if you ask me. And yes, it's nice to hop over the pond once or twice a month and make 200K but is it fair and viable for the company? While your colleagues are trying to make ends on a 35K salary with a new mortgage, young family and never ending aviation related debts?

I know we are going to disagree on this, but as I said earlier...the world would be one dull place if we didn't

================end search

Dont want anyone to feel left out, suggest if you are interested, have a look at Teacher, or Localizer, Dlurker, but not in AC tab. Just surfin this forum. Use any author you may want to. Very interesting results.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by yycflyguy »

WTF??
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DrBoeing
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by DrBoeing »

Rockie wrote:
Ah_yeah wrote:On a semi serious note, are you guys sure you want to come back to this gong show ? I'm thinking a guy named Madoff in an orange jumpsuit is running this place.
You may have a point there. It's looking more and more like our benevolent employer want to put us all on the street for good regardless of our age.
I know I am off topic but the subject was raised
So what is the solution on how to deal with these robber barons?
The company is playing the same games with my group (AME's) we the AME's are at present 14k behind West Jet( even more for other airlines) and all the company is offering is 2% and a slap in the face saying that if we are not happy with our wage to go work for the other airlines.
Now if the 2 groups go out, Raitt will legislate us back, but if we refuse, then what?
They can not fire us and replace us overnight, it is not like the employment office has thousands of transport rated 777,767,A330,A320 ERJ pilots or AME's sitting there waiting to do the job!
But then again, maybe the only true solution to the woes of AC are to shut it down completely.
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vic777
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by vic777 »

DrBoeing wrote: Now if the 2 groups go out, Raitt will legislate us back, but if we refuse, then what?
After the Government agrees that there will be no retribution, we return with a nice pay raise.
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DrBoeing
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by DrBoeing »

vic777 wrote:
DrBoeing wrote: Now if the 2 groups go out, Raitt will legislate us back, but if we refuse, then what?
After the Government agrees that there will be no retribution, we return with a nice pay raise.

Exactly!
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Johnny Mapleleaf
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

Did anyone get to the YYZ meeting today? Did ACPA throw in the towel, now that mandatory retirement is ending?
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Norwegianwood
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Norwegianwood »

Johnny Mapleleaf wrote:Did anyone get to the YYZ meeting today? Did ACPA throw in the towel, now that mandatory retirement is ending?
NO! Head still firmly entrenched at the bottom of the sandbox.................... :toimonster:
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vic777
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by vic777 »

Norwegianwood wrote: NO! Head still firmly entrenched at the bottom of the sandbox.................... :toimonster:
Wow! Well, they're either very Smart or very Stupid.
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FADEC
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by FADEC »

The Ignorant misleading the willfully blind. Embarrassing to watch.

ACPA needs to find a lawyer who is more interested in giving proper advice that his clients can understand, than in getting to the Supreme Court; IF the Supremes would even hear such a case over a law that Parliament has repealed!
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turbo-beaver
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by turbo-beaver »

I am wondering if anyone at this LEC meeting in Toronto asked the executive what the legal bills are to date on this file.

With all the recent changes, why would the MEC not fly this Vancouver based lawyer down to the meeting to explain to the members the legal ramifications of the pending legislative changes and the possible repercussions of endeavoring to circumvent the intent of the legislation by trying to negotiate an agreement which would try and mitigate the effects of the legislation by negotiating a collective agreement that would place the pilots over 60 into a separate group, or to try and restrict what they fly and which seat they are in.

Like, when is enough, enough?

I am wondering, it the counsel for the Association has really explained to the MEC what has been taken place, and what the ramifications are. The Company seems to be getting the picture, why is the Association still fighting the inevitable? Age 60 + is not here yet, but it soon will be. Has anyone in the age 60 Committee at ACPA looked at various ways to mitigate the effects, like the other unions at Air Canada have? Like, shared blocks, or phase in programs, or anything to help the guys out the door, should they choose to go, and then embrace the notion of letting anyone that wants to stay longer their right to do so?

Why, is the Association, still taking a reactive approach, when the horse is already out of the barn, without taking an objective and pro active approach to alleviate the damages to the Association members?
.
Now, for the guy a few pages ago, that was planning on pissing in our coffee (post was deleted)..... during a layover in Hong Kong, before I retired, I was having a few beers with my crew......they know who they are.....I came back from the washroom seeing them all smirking and laughing, wondering what the hell the joke was......they had bought the skipper another beer. I drank it willingly and returned the favour, and they then showed me the picture they took of that beer when I was in the washroom......they all had their dinks in it.....smiling and laughing.

I don't get mad, I just get even......they all paid the price for that little joke. So, a little piss in my coffee, is not going to deter me from the objective I set out over 6 years ago.......
I guess if I do ever get back I will have to help pay for all this litigation. But I will be asking questions.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Rockie »

FADEC wrote:ACPA needs to find a lawyer who is more interested in giving proper advice that his clients can understand, than in getting to the Supreme Court; IF the Supremes would even hear such a case over a law that Parliament has repealed!
There's isn't a lawyer in the country incompetent enough to advise what ACPA has been doing the last six years, and rumour has it their lawyer is very good. The problem here I think is that ACPA and the pilots aren't listening to him. At one point in the meeting one of the ACPA staffers correctly stated that whatever restrictions are placed on people who return must be the minimum necessary to satisfy the operational requirement to preserve as much as possible their right to not be discriminated against. That truism either went straight over everybody's head or was deliberately ignored because it obviously disqualifies the punitive measures most people including our union would like to impose.

It was in fact a game changing acknowledgment of the facts for anybody willing to hear it. Which of course nobody was.
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disco
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by disco »

Norwegianwood wrote:
Johnny Mapleleaf wrote:Did anyone get to the YYZ meeting today? Did ACPA throw in the towel, now that mandatory retirement is ending?
NO! Head still firmly entrenched at the bottom of the sandbox.................... :toimonster:
Why is it that no one here who attended or listened to the meeting heard the NC say that with AC's potential abandonment of the BFOR, they are analysing the need to accommodate pilots beyond 60 as per legal advice and will handle the matter in much more detail in a WAWCON?

Somehow that was lost on everybody here it would seem.

The NC is working on it. Loud and clear.
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Morry Bund
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Morry Bund »

disco wrote:Why is it that no one here who attended or listened to the meeting heard the NC say that with AC's potential abandonment of the BFOR, they are analysing the need to accommodate pilots beyond 60 as per legal advice and will handle the matter in much more detail in a WAWCON? Somehow that was lost on everybody here it would seem. The NC is working on it. Loud and clear.
Because the message was drowned out by the statement that they are considering "accommodating them" by restricting their bidding rights, like forcing anyone over age 60 to bid as F/Os. No sh*t. That's what they said. Talk about being out of touch with reality! What good is it to ask the membership via a WAWCON survey how we should respond? What kind of answer can we expect from that exercise? That's what we did in 2006, and look where we are now. If the majority had its wish, everyone would be gone at age 60.

I found the comments of the age 60 committee rep to have a more balanced, matter of fact tone than that of the others who spoke. Although I would say that he appears to be misinformed on a couple of points, he did appear to remain fairly balanced and cautionary. The most significant thing that he said was that if the union heads down the wrong road, even though the membership wants it to go that way, it may wind up costing everyone an awful lot. That message was probably lost in the emotion.

After listening to my peers speak out, I can only conclude that there doesn’t appear to be much of a realization that our collective almost total ignorance of the impending impact of the change in the law is likely to lead us further into the abyss. The suggestion was made by someone who should know better that there are currently about 200 retired members who are in litigation with the association, and that that number is expected to increase exponentially over the next couple of years! Pardon me? Given that mandatory retirement will end in December, what will be the basis of a complaint next year? ACPA ignoring the law?

Some of the comments and innuendos made about older pilots were quite disgusting, including the suggestion that the ICAO restrictions could result in a number of pilots who are making over $200,000 winding up sitting around and not being utilized because of the inability to assign them to pairings with F/Os under age 60. Really. There was no mention of the fact that every other airline in Canada and the world doesn’t seem to have any problem with the ICAO restrictions, or, for that matter, that on the 777 the presence of an augment pilot under age 60 totally eliminates the crewing restrictions, or that with a couple of hours of sim and a line check, RPs, who are almost all under age 60, could be counted as eligible crew members for the purposes of the ICAO restrictions. That is the type of accommodation that is legal and that the union should be looking at, among other things such as voluntary incentives to encourage pilots to retire before age 60. Not on the radar.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by yycflyguy »

You guys like facts, so here are a few:
All DFR complaints against ACPA and AC have been dismissed.
The BFOR argument can only be argued by the company. ACPA is along for the ride.
The company has acknowledged the December 15th 2012 date and plans to remedy it in THIS CA.
Status pay/aircraft grouping of the WB would eliminate the scheduling bottleneck to accommodate the ICAO over/under rule.
If the company cuts bait, so will the union as the liability exposure would be 100%.
and that that number is expected to increase exponentially over the next couple of years! Pardon me? Given that mandatory retirement will end in December, what will be the basis of a complaint next year? ACPA ignoring the law?
Incorrect. The reference to the numbers increasing exponentially is the fact that more guys wont retire at 60. They will just stay on.
That is the type of accommodation that is legal and that the union should be looking at, among other things such as voluntary incentives to encourage pilots to retire before age 60. Not on the radar.
Sounds like negotiating. How do you know what was or wasn't presented in this round of bargaining? We can only propose remedies. They still have to be agreed upon by the company.
I was having a few beers with my crew......they know who they are.....I came back from the washroom seeing them all smirking and laughing, wondering what the hell the joke was......they had bought the skipper another beer. I drank it willingly and returned the favour, and they then showed me the picture they took of that beer when I was in the washroom......they all had their dinks in it.....smiling and laughing.
Well, you are what you drink. :lol:
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Morry Bund
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repealed!!!

Post by Morry Bund »

yycflyguy wrote:The BFOR argument can only be argued by the company. ACPA is along for the ride.
That was clarified yesterday. He told us that there was a rumour that ACPA could not argue the BFOR, but that as late as October, ACPA won the right to argue the BFOR.

yycflyguy wrote:
and that that number is expected to increase exponentially over the next couple of years! Pardon me? Given that mandatory retirement will end in December, what will be the basis of a complaint next year? ACPA ignoring the law?
Incorrect. The reference to the numbers increasing exponentially is the fact that more guys wont retire at 60. They will just stay on.
That is not what was said. He said that there are approximately 200 retired pilots currently in litigation against ACPA now, and that that number is going to keep on increasing exponentially over the next couple of years. Big difference.
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Last edited by Morry Bund on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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