Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

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Airbrake
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Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Airbrake »

Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots
BRENT JANG
Last updated Monday, Feb. 27, 2012 9:57PM EST

Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots (REUTERS)
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A co-mediator has tendered her resignation from contract talks between Air Canada and the union representing pilots.
Retired judge Louise Otis scolded the Air Canada Pilots Association for disrupting mediation. On Feb. 13, federal Labour Minister Lisa Raitt named two co-mediators in the pilots’ talks – Ms. Otis and Jacques Lessard, acting director-general of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service.
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ACPA expressed concerns that Ms. Otis will be unavailable for mediation in March, but she said Monday that she has professional commitments in Europe, not vacation time.
“The representatives of the union bargaining committee expressed their own time constraints during the school break in March,” Ms. Otis wrote in her resignation letter, criticizing ACPA for ignoring confidentiality rules.
One industry observer said ACPA has effectively “forced out one of the mediators based on doublespeak,” complaining that the union publicly accepted Ms. Otis’s appointment at first but then disparaged her for being absent in March.
The pilots’ previous contract expired on March 31, 2011.
“At the first session with ACPA, in the presence of my co-mediator Jacques Lessard, I mentioned my professional commitments – not vacations – in March,” Ms. Otis wrote. “It is clear that ACPA is very anxious to proceed immediately and I do not want to be responsible for delaying the process. In the interest of avoiding delays and advancing the resolution of the dispute, I believe it is necessary to tender my resignation.”
She urged union leaders to tread carefully during mediated talks.
“Failure to observe confidentiality will not help the resolution of the dispute and will make it impossible for a mediator to function effectively as a neutral,” Ms. Otis said.
ACPA spokesman Paul Howard said it was Air Canada that broke the confidentiality of the union’s initial meeting with mediator. He pointed to a letter to pilots dated Feb. 20 from Captain Rick Allen, the airline’s senior director of flight operations.
“If the company hadn’t mischaracterized that meeting, there wouldn’t be an issue in the first place,” Mr. Howard said Monday night. “We had to set the record straight for own members.”
Capt. Allen voiced concerns in his letter about the impasse between management and the union during mediation.
Ms. Otis helped produce a tentative agreement between Air Canada and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, but IAM members subsequently rejected that deal.
In a statement, Air Canada expressed disappointment about Ms. Otis’s resignation, calling her “a highly regarded jurist who most recently played an instrumental role in the mediation of a tentative agreement with the IAM.”
While the pilots’ union is warning its members that Air Canada plans to water down defined benefit pensions and launch a low-cost carrier, the airline emphasizes that changes are crucial to ensure the company’s long-term viability.
“We will continue to work co-operatively with the remaining co-mediator, Mr. Jacques Lessard, with a view to successfully concluding a tentative agreement with our pilots’ union,” Air Canada said.
Ms. Otis is a retired judge of the Quebec Court of Appeal.
Published on Monday, Feb. 27, 2012 7:36PM EST
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duranium
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by duranium »

One step closer to the government's giant sledgehammer. The SPLAT will be heard across Canada. No egos will be spared this time.
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rudder
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by rudder »

Like I said - this is Bosnia. Nobody comes out of here unscathed. Also proves that failing to honour the terms of engagement comes at a price. Good luck finding a replacement.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

rudder wrote:Like I said - this is Bosnia. Nobody comes out of here unscathed. Also proves that failing to honour the terms of engagement comes at a price. Good luck finding a replacement.
Replacement was never needed. They assigned co-mediators to this file. Ms Otis is out. Mr Lessard will be the sole mediator now. They are just trying to paint the pilots as the "bad guys" while they run out the strike mandate clock. TICK TOCK

The real question is: Will the BoD fire Rovinescu's ass before his $5 million retainer is due March 31?
34 cancelled AC flights this weekend. Labour groups with unsettled contracts. Stock is back down to $1. Piss poor management is being exposed.
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Last edited by yycflyguy on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ah_yeah
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Ah_yeah »

Another example of why government should butt out and get their own act together. Labour Minister appoints a broker that cannot be there to broker...a big WTF ?
If last weekend is indicative of what the next six months holds, there will be some heads a roll'in. Cue the golden parchutes :roll:
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rudder
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by rudder »

yycflyguy wrote:
rudder wrote:Like I said - this is Bosnia. Nobody comes out of here unscathed. Also proves that failing to honour the terms of engagement comes at a price. Good luck finding a replacement.
Replacement was never needed. They assigned co-mediators to this file. Ms Otis is out. Mr Lessard will be the sole mediator now. They are just trying to paint the pilots as the "bad guys" while they run out the strike mandate clock. TICK TOCK

The real question is: Will the BoD fire Rovinescu's ass before his $5 million retainer is due March 31?
34 cancelled AC flights this weekend. Labour groups with unsettled contracts. Stock is back down to $1. Piss poor management is being exposed.
I did not say which party failed to honour the terms. Maybe it was one, maybe it was both.

If a TA is reached with the assistance of the remaining mediator, great. But if no TA is reached then all this talk about strike is a joke. There will be no strike or lockout in the current political environment. If this process fails then you will become much more acquainted with Ms. Raitt, Ms. Macpherson, or both.

As for CR, he isn't going anywhere so long as AC remains on this side of a CCAA filing. If AC files involuntarily, then all bets are off. But that eventuality is not going to be part of the 2012 time frame during which this collective bargaining round will be settled.
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duranium
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by duranium »

You folks sure have an inflated opinion of yourselves. Do you think that for a fraction of a second that the BoD will even think of removing Mr Rovinescu after all he has accomplished so far.

Start thinking on preserving your employment, not your benefits but your job and stop acting like spoiled brats. You want, want, want, but have no clue of what is happening in the rest of the world. The world has changed but you folks are still back in the stone age. You will never even come close in obtaining one third of what you are asking for, in the best of times but these are sure not the best of times. Competition is global and you are part of said competition for all the other airlines in this small world. Start with that fact of life. Get off your white horse and look around you. You are going to lose, the only question is how much.

Here is a fact for you to ponder. The mediator has 6 months to help you people and that 6 months ends when ? End of August, at the tail end of high season. After that, you can do whatever you feel like doing but the inflicted damage you are aiming for will be way smaller after that. As for your cancelled flights, there must be people on the other side of the fence looking at ways to minimize their effect if not cornering a few of you and hanging you high and dry, PERMANENTLY. I will not put this last thought past Calin Rovinescu as he is one smart person and many in your group have a propensity to seriously underestimate people and situations.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

duranium wrote:You folks sure have an inflated opinion of yourselves. Do you think that for a fraction of a second that the BoD will even think of removing Mr Rovinescu after all he has accomplished so far.

Start thinking on preserving your employment, not your benefits but your job and stop acting like spoiled brats. You want, want, want, but have no clue of what is happening in the rest of the world. The world has changed but you folks are still back in the stone age. You will never even come close in obtaining one third of what you are asking for, in the best of times but these are sure not the best of times. Competition is global and you are part of said competition for all the other airlines in this small world. Start with that fact of life. Get off your white horse and look around you. You are going to lose, the only question is how much.

Here is a fact for you to ponder. The mediator has 6 months to help you people and that 6 months ends when ? End of August, at the tail end of high season. After that, you can do whatever you feel like doing but the inflicted damage you are aiming for will be way smaller after that. As for your cancelled flights, there must be people on the other side of the fence looking at ways to minimize their effect if not cornering a few of you and hanging you high and dry, PERMANENTLY. I will not put this last thought past Calin Rovinescu as he is one smart person and many in your group have a propensity to seriously underestimate people and situations.
Funny. You think that the mediator is there to "help" us and that the corporation wants a settlement. Answer me this.

Why has the corporation not negotiated over the past 5 months?
Why are they setting artificial deadlines and manufacturing crises?
Why did they file for notice of dispute back in November?
Why did they only agree to one, 7 day extension of talks before the mandatory 21 day cooling off period?
Why is the corporation looking to set up offshore divisions using non-Canadian, non-TC licensed pilots?
Why have they never shown the pilots what their business plan is for an LCC so ACPA can complete their due diligence and approve or reject such a proposal?
Why are they looking to unilaterally violate the scope article?
Why are executives and other labour groups entitled to DB pensions yet ours is underfunded and under threat?

Our "inflated opinion" comes from being told from the government that we are an "essential service" yet they don't want to pay us or RESPECT us as such. In fact, they want to decimate what is left of the profession. All we want is our contract from 2002. 10 years ago. No raise required. Just get us back to what we were making a decade ago.

Pilot payroll accounts for approximately 4% CASM. We are not the problem.

Pilots are around for a career. Executives rape and pillage and then look for the closest exit. This has nothing to do with sustainability. This has to do with union busting and maintaining executive compensation and bonuses. Meanwhile the government just wants to maintain their majority government. The public has grown tired of the Federal government and their meddling.

ACPA has always said the same thing. We want a negotiated contract.

As far as your reality of the world. There are MANY airlines in China, India, Middle East that are looking for professional, safe pilots. For quality of life, I am not sure why anyone stays at this circus. There are better options out there. No matter what your view is of Air Canada pilots here is a fact, they are respected worldwide. Their CV's go to the top of the pile when looking for a job. We had Chinese recruiters standing outside our crewroom handing out information on available contracts.

Your callous view that "we" will lose is far from the truth. The only losers will be the Canadian public when the airline, they take for granted for being safe, is gone and replaced with either offshore labour (think Mexican pilots and maintenance) or completely gone and the void is filled with Emirates with the same cheap labour. It will not translate to cheaper fares. Just an additional stop through Dubai to get to London or Paris from Canada.... oh, and the government will lose all those tax dollars from 30,000 employees and all the ancillary services that depend on Air Canada.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

I read this quote from one of the comments to the Globe and Mail article and think it is spot on.

The governments appointed mediator cannot mediate for the whole month of March, but how dare the Air Canada Pilots bring this to the forefront. It is always nice to see a mediator show their hand prior to wasting SIX months of everybodies time. By the way Mrs. Ottis, it's an Association not a Union! This association is the same as WestJets and is set up specifically to protect it's employees from the CEO's who treat this place like an ATM. The pilots who remain here for their careers, not for the 5 to 8 years as the CEO's do, are still making 30% less then they were in 2003.
Here's a headline for the Mrs Ottis...
AIR CANADA PILOTS ASK FOR THEIR 2002 WAGES BACK!
We are done paying the CEO's, LET EMIRATES come in, as they will at least pay their pilots!
Offering us less than WestJet in order to compete with them, will only destabilize a viable company whos employees actually enjoy going to work.
$10 covers the cost of your pilots. If they give us a 20% haircut, do you think you'll ever see that $2 saving on your ticket price?
We can never be low cost, because there are to many management pigs at our trough!
Stressing out the individuals at the controls of an airplane in order to increase a CEO's payout is absurd! $5 million BONUS (retainer) coming his way next month.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

yycflyguy wrote:
Funny. You think that the mediator is there to "help" us and that the corporation wants a settlement. Answer me this.

Why has the corporation not negotiated over the past 5 months?
Why are they setting artificial deadlines and manufacturing crises?
Why did they file for notice of dispute back in November?
Why did they only agree to one, 7 day extension of talks before the mandatory 21 day cooling off period?
Why is the corporation looking to set up offshore divisions using non-Canadian, non-TC licensed pilots?
Why have they never shown the pilots what their business plan is for an LCC so ACPA can complete their due diligence and approve or reject such a proposal?
Why are they looking to unilaterally violate the scope article?
Why are executives and other labour groups entitled to DB pensions yet ours is underfunded and under threat?

Our "inflated opinion" comes from being told from the government that we are an "essential service" yet they don't want to pay us or RESPECT us as such. In fact, they want to decimate what is left of the profession. All we want is our contract from 2002. 10 years ago. No raise required. Just get us back to what we were making a decade ago.

Pilot payroll accounts for approximately 4% CASM. We are not the problem.

Pilots are around for a career. Executives rape and pillage and then look for the closest exit. This has nothing to do with sustainability. This has to do with union busting and maintaining executive compensation and bonuses. Meanwhile the government just wants to maintain their majority government. The public has grown tired of the Federal government and their meddling.

ACPA has always said the same thing. We want a negotiated contract.

As far as your reality of the world. There are MANY airlines in China, India, Middle East that are looking for professional, safe pilots. For quality of life, I am not sure why anyone stays at this circus. There are better options out there. No matter what your view is of Air Canada pilots here is a fact, they are respected worldwide. Their CV's go to the top of the pile when looking for a job. We had Chinese recruiters standing outside our crewroom handing out information on available contracts.

Your callous view that "we" will lose is far from the truth. The only losers will be the Canadian public when the airline, they take for granted for being safe, is gone and replaced with either offshore labour (think Mexican pilots and maintenance) or completely gone and the void is filled with Emirates with the same cheap labour. It will not translate to cheaper fares. Just an additional stop through Dubai to get to London or Paris from Canada.... oh, and the government will lose all those tax dollars from 30,000 employees and all the ancillary services that depend on Air Canada.
+1 yycflyguy
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Zip Tie »

If you put a shell up to your ear you can hear the ocean.
If you could put Air Canada up to your ear you can hear the competition laughing.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Old fella »

"Air Canada's management proxy circular, released last Friday, disclosed that CEO Calin Rovinescu received total compensation of nearly C$4.6 million in 2010, up 75 percent on the C$2.6 million he received the year before.

Air Canada said the compensation "reflects the terms of Mr. Rovinescu's original employment contract of April 2009 when he was recruited to return to Air Canada" and that "these arrangements are not new". It declined to comment further.

The contract also includes a retention payment of C$5 million for Rovinescu if he stays until March 31, 2012. (Reporting by Nicole Mordant; editing by Rob Wilson)".........

More........


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le1980922/


Now that is a handsome sum indeed “doing less with more" for him. These people come and go like the wind, put their stamp on things, give themselves a pat on the back, and collect their millions. Then it is off to another "opportunities" with some other conglomerate in another entirely different sector. Probably next stop for him is the fashion industry or media………
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morefun
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by morefun »

Don't let your daughters grow up to be pilots.... :goodman:
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

That aint all Old Fella. He is due a $5 million retainer fee at the end of March. Like there isn't better "talent" out there :roll:

It is the attack on the middle class.

Deranged-ium alluded to:
You want, want, want, but have no clue of what is happening in the rest of the world...
Competition is global and you are part of said competition for all the other airlines in this small world. Start with that fact of life. Get off your white horse and look around you.
I have looked around. The middle class is speaking out against corporate greed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_capitalism

The irony is that I am ready, willing and able to accept a position in a Socialist country that has better conditions than my Capitalist country.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Bede »

yycflyguy,

I find your URL links somewhat ironic. The 99th income percentile in Canada is $181000/year (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2 ... 50-eng.pdf). That's probably below what the average AC captain earns, and below what almost every WJA captain earns. Even the top 5% in Canada earn $89000- an FO wage. For the entire world, the 99th percentile is at $55000.

The airline pilot profession is an upper class profession, not middle class. We provide a highly important service to the general public and we do it very well. We need to start selling the value that we as professional airline pilots bring to our society (would you want anyone other than the brightest flying your family around?) instead of appealing to an arbitrary sense of fairness.

If the general public got a fixed amount of money and was allowed to distribute that money amongst the professions in accordance with an arbitrary sense of fairness, I am pretty sure most of us would take a pay cut.

I wish you guys the best.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Fanblade »

Bede wrote:yycflyguy,

I find your URL links somewhat ironic. The 99th income percentile in Canada is $181000/year (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2 ... 50-eng.pdf). That's probably below what the average AC captain earns, and below what almost every WJA captain earns.
.

Bede,

I get the point however I would say only about 1/3 of AC's captains make above that wage. Certainly no narrow body captains do. Even the 767 captains would barely make the cut off. Glad to hear WJ pilots are doing so well. We also have currently about 15% making less than 42k/ year.

TA1 had 100k/ year 767 captains in it at the LCC.

What the company has on the table at the moment is up to 20% pay cuts and complete loss of job security to out sourcing.

You do know what will come knocking on your door step if we lose?

Durainium?

Never mind your not worth the effort.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

That's probably below what the average AC captain earns
That is the error in your argument. Stop me if you've heard this before :wink:

At AC:
AC pilots start at $37k (after around 7-10 years in the industry and thousands of hours of experience)
Year 2 pilots make $42k
Position group currently has around 500 guys making ~$62k
Year 3 EMJ CA earn $114/hr topping out at $135/hr of which there are around another 300 guys (top of my head +/-)
Year 3 A320 FO's earn $82/hr and top out at $113/hr of which there are around 800 guys (top of my head +/-)

Definitely not the top 1%... however your point is made that we do have guys who, after 25-30 years of service are in the top 1%. They make it for 3-5 years of their career and then retire.

I also do not agree with your claim that the general public would want to see their pilot take a pay cut. Ask any passenger that was on Cactus 1549 what the value of a pilot is. Do not diminish the fact that your training and years of expertise that made for a perfect flight was achieved easily. You make it look easy because you are good at it.

Worldwide contracts available today indicate that AC pilots are already Low Wage.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:Like I said - this is Bosnia. Nobody comes out of here unscathed. Also proves that failing to honour the terms of engagement comes at a price. Good luck finding a replacement.
Rudder,

We never agreed to any terms. We agreed only to mediation. We were clear. As long as the corporation is planning an LCC startup we will not forgo our right to strike. Otis stepped in looking for a stand down agreement after we had been clear with the minister that was not going to happen. Then Otis revealed at the first meeting she is unavailable until April.

The culprit here was the minister of labor. She new Mme Otis was not available. She told Mme Otis it was not an issue. The minister of labor never asked us.

I will leave it to your imagination why the minister of labor did this.

I think Mme Otis has done the right thing here. She went back to the minister of labor and asked to be removed when she realized her absence was a problem. The minister said no. Now she resigned. The lady obviously has brains. Who would want to be involved with this toxic place when your boss isn't even upfront with you?

As far as confidentiality goes? ACPA wasn't left much choice after the corporation twisted what had transpired on day one in a letter to pilots. Remember they want us to act. They will lie, cheat and steal to have it happen. ACPA had to step in to reduce the volatility. Unfortunately Mme Otis wasn't amused. Understandable but as you say. This is Bosnia.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by TheSuit »

yycflyguy wrote:Definitely not the top 1%... however your point is made that we do have guys who, after 25-30 years of service are in the top 1%. They make it for 3-5 years of their career and then retire.
Bede said captains. The captain average is way above the numbers you quoted.
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Re: Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

Post by Bede »

I still stand by my numbers. I looked at my T4 today and was rather surprised by how much I made. If not the top 1% then at least the top 5%.

We need to start thinking the way guys like Rovinescu think and not think like trade unionists. Rovinescu gets paid what he does because he has convinced his employer that he is indispensable. Pilots must do the same. Either be indispensable or at least appear indispensable.
yycflyguy wrote: I also do not agree with your claim that the general public would want to see their pilot take a pay cut. Ask any passenger that was on Cactus 1549 what the value of a pilot is. Do not diminish the fact that your training and years of expertise that made for a perfect flight was achieved easily. You make it look easy because you are good at it.
Of course the travelling public wouldn't want us to have a pay cut if money was infinite. If it was up to me I'd give everyone a raise, but I had an important caveat in my paragraph. Given a fixed amount of money. Resources are finite and if someone had to divvy up finite resources, I think we would lose. The average wage in Canada is around $42k/yr. The average Joe (making $42k/yr) will give themselves a raise before they'll agree to give a pilot one.
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