AC Starting Salary

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Tex North
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AC Starting Salary

Post by Tex North » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:59 am

Has there been any talk of increasing the starting pay at AC with the new contract?
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snag
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by snag » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:02 am

Yes. There was a small increase proposed on TA1, however the new hire flat pay would have been extended from 2 to 4 years, with year 3 and 4 having lower pay than what could be expected on the old contact under formula pay. This is one of many things that still need to improve in any new contact.
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retired or retarded
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by retired or retarded » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:20 am

I have never seen any concern from the top 1/3 or the company that would lead me to believe either is willing to sacrifice anything that would correct the discraceful first two years. The most common comment is that everyone has had to do it so why shouldn't you. Another example of why we will always be fragmented. That is not to say everyone feels that way. I have heard a lot of people that don't think it is right but not really any that are willing to put any bargaining weight behind it. I guess we can always hope. The only models I saw that got rid of the flat salary or even position group do not really seem to increase your pay in the first two to three years. Feel free to correct me. I am sure someone will.
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WestCoastPilot
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by WestCoastPilot » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Is their other ways for an AC guy on flat salary to boost the paycheck? Picking up flights on off days? Any chance at time and a half for doing extra work?
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Beach 200
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Beach 200 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:27 am

Would anyone care to share on what my "take home" or net pay would be? I know it is semi monthly pay and have heard the second cheque is lower, but how low?
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CanadianEh
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by CanadianEh » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:34 am

Beach 200 wrote:Would anyone care to share on what my "take home" or net pay would be? I know it is semi monthly pay and have heard the second cheque is lower, but how low?
$900
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Wheels
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Wheels » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:59 am

And the first cheque?
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FL020
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by FL020 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:01 am

shameful...in fact a total disgrace. And is this cap in effect until you reach the 320 series? Are the new hires part of the pay group till they get off the rp, or right seat of the embraer?
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Lost in Saigon
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Lost in Saigon » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:57 am

FL020 wrote:shameful...in fact a total disgrace. And is this cap in effect until you reach the 320 series? Are the new hires part of the pay group till they get off the rp, or right seat of the embraer?
No, newhires NEVER really are free of Position Group.... Any pilot hired after 2003 is always subject to Position Group wages, while those hired before 2003 are not.

If for ANY reason a pilot hired after 2003 is bumped back to an RP or EMB FO position, they are once again paid Position Group wages.

Right now you can have one B777 RP hired in 2002 making about $120,000 per year and another B777 RP pilot hired in 2005 making only $85,000 for doing the exact same job!

That is $35,000 difference!
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CanadianEh
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by CanadianEh » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:01 am

Wheels wrote:And the first cheque?
$1800ish
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TheStig
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by TheStig » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:30 am

Pretty pathetic heh? It's not unheard of pilots on flat pay moving back into their parents house (sometimes with their wife and kids!)

There aren't too many ways to make extra cash while on flat salary, becoming a sim 'volunteer' can add a bit to your paycheque but you can't really bank getting called with any frequency, and you'd have to live in the same city as the simulator.

Quite a few pilots on (and off of) flat salary have part-time jobs outside of Air Canada such as teaching ground school or as simulator instructors at local flying school (remember AC has 'scope' over your services flying professionally), while others work as servers, bartenders, real estate agents, ski patrollers etc. However, before you include extra earnings into your budget remember that you'll be working A LOT, junior pilots (unless you're fortunate enough to snag an opening as a 777 RP) work 16-18 days per month. While you are junior you might not have too much control over which 16-18 days of the month you work either.

I wouldn't try and talk anyone out of flying for Air Canada as it does turn into a great job flying all over the world with terrific people, in addition to lots of lifestyle flexibility and a decent paycheque (I'm told Air Canada has some of the best paid pilots in the world ;) but pilots weighing their career options should do so with an accurate assessment of the entry level position they would start at.
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yycflyguy
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by yycflyguy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:32 am

Lost in Saigon wrote:
FL020 wrote:shameful...in fact a total disgrace. And is this cap in effect until you reach the 320 series? Are the new hires part of the pay group till they get off the rp, or right seat of the embraer?
No, newhires NEVER really are free of Position Group.... Any pilot hired after 2003 is always subject to Position Group wages, while those hired before 2003 are not.

If for ANY reason a pilot hired after 2003 is bumped back to an RP or EMB FO position, they are once again paid Position Group wages.

Right now you can have one B777 RP hired in 2002 making about $120,000 per year and another B777 RP pilot hired in 2005 making only $85,000 for doing the exact same job!

That is $35,000 difference!
LIS, don't confuse Flat Pay with Position Group pay.

All new hires are subject to two years of flat pay. Clock starts first flight after line-check, so after all your initial training, it is around 27-28 months on Flat. You then move into the position group if you are an EMJ FO or 767/A330/B777/B767 RP. It is true that if you are awarded A320 and subsequently forced back into a Position Group position you go back into the Position Pay Scale as well.
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TheStig
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by TheStig » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:53 am

FL020 wrote:shameful...in fact a total disgrace. And is this cap in effect until you reach the 320 series? Are the new hires part of the pay group till they get off the rp, or right seat of the embraer?
Flat pay lasts 2 Years;
Year 1 $38,000
Year 2 $43,000

Regardless of whether you are an FO or RP on any type. Yes, AC had flat salary 767 FO at one point. In the past pilots were able to bid and hold (EMJ) Capt. in their first 2 years, once they completed their line check they began collecting formula pay.

Once you reach Year 3 (and were hired after 2003) on the pay scale if you are flying as an EMJ FO or RP you are paid the Pay Group rate. This rate is structured similar to a status pay systen, as it is based on the 'pool' of PG pilots flying as EMJ FO's and RP's.

As LIS pointed out 777 RP hired before 2003 are paid much more than those hired after 2003 flying the same type. However, what isn't mentioned is that the Pay Grouping results in EMJ FO's (at year 3 and beyond) being paid at a rate higher than the (paltry) EMJ rate that is contributed to the 'pool'. Not saying that I like the PG, but that's how it currently works, of course in a few months the PG could be history.
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Sea2Sky
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Sea2Sky » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:19 pm

I was hired last year (EMB FO). I just ran through my bank deposits for the last year for you, and here's what I got:

- My after-tax TAKE HOME for the first year was right around $36,000, or roughly (depending on how much flying I did) $3000/month.
- The "advance" at the beginning of the month is averagely $763.50
- The remainder depended on how much I flew (per diems and allowances are included in the bigger cheque). Averagely, the second cheques were for $2200-$2400
- My yearly sum factors in training pay for about 2 months, and all the allowances that are alotted through the course of the year. Whether you count per diems and allowances as pay, that's up to you
- I did very little overtime last year (none right now!), and haven't flown nearly as much I could have for the past 4 months. Had I maxed out my flying for the past 4 months, or accepted more overtime flying, I think my annual take home would have been about $2500-$3500 more (in overtime and per diems)

If the original question is about how much money will flow through your bank in the first year, there it is, right off my paycheques.
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Al707
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Al707 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 am

About $800 - $1000 of the $3000 quoted is expenses/ allowances! Not really "take home pay" unless your living on airplane food and stolen aircraft yogurt!
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ogopogo
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by ogopogo » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:27 am

How is it possible to take home $36K on a 38K flat salary?
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mbav8r
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by mbav8r » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:30 am

Read the post above yours, do the math and you have your answer.
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Mig29
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by Mig29 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:09 am

Not sure why you guys are getting all wrapped up with this issue about the salary @ AC??

No point of doing any math, interpolating or computing it - the bottom line is that the starting and year 2 salary is disgraceful for any professional pilot coming on board! It's below industry standard and no matter how you look at it is just not sustainable for a family person coming in at an average age of 35 with kids and mortgage to pay.

If you can survive the first to years then you are doing quite well, but until then hang on!!

My advice, try to narrow your expenses and don't look at the paycheck numbers too much - in fact just avoid looking at them at all for first two years! It will save you many heartaches and grey hairs to come :lol:
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TheStig
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by TheStig » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:32 am

For any outsiders interested in just why ACPA has been fighting so hard, consider this as just a cross section of the corporations latest (aka final and best) offer. Relevant to this thread, it contained fixed pay rates between $42 to $63/hour for the first 4 YEARS for all FO positions (and pay CUTS for the RP positions beyond that). This isn't just about pilots protecting the top end salaries anymore.
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WF9F
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by WF9F » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:54 am

Here's some advice don't come here , really it is a shit show and has been for a long time.
Go to westjet you will make more money and get a lot better treatment.
Seriously you don't want to work here.
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slickmag
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by slickmag » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:43 am

As for Mech's, Not only do we make $6/hr less than hour WJ mech's we Have to be endorsed on upto 8 different aircraft types. Where as Wj has 1!.... and if the new contract gets forced, say good bye to stat holidays, paid or the day off. If the government imposes this for Mechs it wont set a good precedent for the rest of the working class in Canada. I agree with the above poster - don't go to AC!
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by cj555 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:21 am

Sea2Sky wrote:I was hired last year (EMB FO). I just ran through my bank deposits for the last year for you, and here's what I got:

- My after-tax TAKE HOME for the first year was right around $36,000, or roughly (depending on how much flying I did) $3000/month.
To put it in perspective, I work for a company as an Accountant (in Montreal). I have a Bachelor degree and am completing a professional accounting designation (CMA). My take home (after tax) is $2400/month (28,800/yr) after 2 years.

For your second year of flying at AC, thats good even when compared to a different job category. To top it off, your job is probably much more satisfying.
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paddy
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by paddy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:55 am

cj555 wrote:
Sea2Sky wrote:I was hired last year (EMB FO). I just ran through my bank deposits for the last year for you, and here's what I got:

- My after-tax TAKE HOME for the first year was right around $36,000, or roughly (depending on how much flying I did) $3000/month.
To put it in perspective, I work for a company as an Accountant (in Montreal). I have a Bachelor degree and am completing a professional accounting designation (CMA). My take home (after tax) is $2400/month (28,800/yr) after 2 years.

For your second year of flying at AC, thats good even when compared to a different job category. To top it off, your job is probably much more satisfying.
Yes but you are probably recently out of school. Those hired at air Canada often have 10 years plus of industrial experience. What will you make after ten years at your present company?
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cj555
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by cj555 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:18 am

paddy wrote:
cj555 wrote:
Sea2Sky wrote: Yes but you are probably recently out of school. Those hired at air Canada often have 10 years plus of industrial experience. What will you make after ten years at your present company?
Its hard to say, depends on many factors such as level of responsibility, promotions etc. I would say after 10 years at my present company (working as an accountant) I could expect between $90K and $120K.
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yycflyguy
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Re: AC Starting Salary

Post by yycflyguy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:29 am

cj555 wrote:Its hard to say, depends on many factors such as level of responsibility, promotions etc. I would say after 10 years at my present company (working as an accountant) I could expect between $90K and $120K.
To make that at AC you would need:

1. 7-10 year of experience to get hired.
2. Another 7-10 years to move into a seniority position that pays.

Total from today - 14-20 years.... that's assuming:
1. that AC survives
2. You progress through your "experience" years
3. There is no stagnation at AC

Keep your job and learn to fly on the side for pleasure.
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