Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

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yycflyguy
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

Rudder you quiter.
You are about to give to CR through lack of situational awareness what he could not get in the CCAA process.
Um, give? No.
The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service
They are about to get exactly NEITHER from AC.
Planning rallies as a show of force and solidarity is a colossal waste of time.
You imply that this only is significant for AC pilots. This reckless government has served notice to every pilot and every union member in Canada that the Canada Labour Code and the Charter of Human Rights does not apply to this government. They are conducting themselves above the law. 3000 pilots will not accept that. Will you?
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mel gibson
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by mel gibson »

Rudder,

Thanks for your input?

What Air Canada needs to do is get more foreign pilots and aircraft
and base them in a country other than Canada to avoid the lazy, high
cost entitled work force that pays 30-40% of thier pay every month to support
the majority of Canadians who try and avoid paying taxes.

At the very least, contract a number of foreign pilots and aircraft in Canada,
"seasonally ", of course and plead your case to the government that they are essential
to the regional economies, just like farm workers.

Do you actually talk to the Thomas Cook pilots in the crew room in
Calgary. " Hey mate, we love everyone and we love you!"
" It must be really neat to fly the 757, eh? I fly a Boeing as well!"

Please refer to my earlier post and enjoy the drama.
Remember what goes around comes around.
Listen to the Labour Minister and how she keeps making reference
to essential needs we provide to northern communities,
"Ice pilots, Air Canada edition."
I would rather be called a "dumba$$" by Joe than be robbed
blind by big business and the government.
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Last edited by mel gibson on Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Canoehead
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Canoehead »

Just in case you have the stomach for it, here's a link that gets you into the debate, and further down, a list of the MP's who voted for and against.
My MP is Kellie Leitch. She will get another letter from me sating my disappointment, and reminding her to not bother coming to my front door during the next campaign.
The finger has been given to Canadian labour yet again, while the "Kevin O'Leary's" in their luxurious offices are high-fiving each other.

Parliament Transcripts
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Last edited by Canoehead on Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
momentoftruth
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by momentoftruth »

rudder wrote:
MackTheKnife wrote:
The pilots have always have always held the trump card but are too afraid of the boogeyman to use it. Last time I checked neither The Rat or the Colon can fly an airplane.

Hopefully the new MEC chairman still has the fortitude he displayed back in the late 90's.

Good Luck
You guys still don't get it. Take a look around, don't you see the opposing forces surrounding you? Who are your allies? Do you have any? What is your plan? Do you know what happens next? Read the legislation, it is extremely onerous. You are about to give to CR through lack of situational awareness what he could not get in the CCAA process.

Sure JMB was slick on TV more than a decade ago, but history has never looked back and judged that strike as a success. Whatever the strategy was then will not be of any use now. Withdrawal of services and work-to-rule have already been taken off the table by the Feds.

I look forward to the sound bites and interviews (in both official languages :mrgreen: ) but if the message is just bluster and bombast then it is not going to change the outcome. Stop treating this as a PR war (which you will never win - just ask the Electro Motive workers). The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service. And you have already lost the political battle on Parliament Hill. Instead, you would be better served to work on a corporate solution that is better than the one that is being presented by CR.

The message is already out there: economic viability and competitiveness of Air Canada and the sustainability of its pension plan. Even the market and perhaps the Feds would be interested in hearing something from the pilots about that. You need to outgun the gunslinger himself.

Unfortunately, if you have not already begun that initiative time is running out. Planning rallies as a show of force and solidarity is a colossal waste of time.


rudder... you appear to be "caught in irons."
You are not alone!
Your quote above, even in despair, has heart/hope and care.
... "You need to outgun the gunslinger himself."
The jackboots and sociopaths have been, and always will be, among us.
Our fore fathers taught us, in spite of them, we always have choices.
Yes, it is pretty dark out there right now!
Confidence is high that sails will fill and rudder restore.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by teacher »

Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!
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Bede
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Bede »

Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by altiplano »

What is the timeline for the arbitration process?

What kind of proposal is the union putting forward? I assume company will put out TA1?

How is it expected to affect recent / new hires?
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CanadianEh
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

mel gibson wrote:Rudder,

Thanks for your input?

What Air Canada needs to do is get more foreign pilots and aircraft
and base them in a country other than Canada to avoid the lazy, high
cost entitled work force that pays 30-40% of thier pay every month to support
the majority of Canadians who try and avoid paying taxes.

At the very least, contract a number of foreign pilots and aircraft in Canada,
"seasonally ", of course and plead your case to the government that they are essential
to the regional economies, just like farm workers.

Do you actually talk to the Thomas Cook pilots in the crew room in
Calgary. " Hey mate, we love everyone and we love you!"
" It must be really neat to fly the 757, eh? I fly a Boeing as well!"

Please refer to my earlier post and enjoy the drama.
Remember what goes around comes around.
Listen to the Labour Minister and how she keeps making reference
to essential needs we provide to northern communities,
"Ice pilots, Air Canada edition."
I would rather be called a "dumba$$" by Joe than be robbed
blind by big business and the government.

Me thinks mel gibson is a pissed off air canada shareholder who lost his shirt. The sad thing about Air Canada shareholders is that they don't realize that the Air Canada pilots want exactly what they (hopefully) want; a sustainable, healthy and united company. Not an ATM for corporate pigs.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

teacher wrote:Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!
Correct, however, did you watch your company have the value YOU created stripped from it and given to Robert Milton and ACE shareholders? Did YOU have to take concessions in spite of the fact that you did your best to make this company run smoothly? If you did and still believe AC pilots are out of line by not giving up more, you're crazy.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

Bede wrote:Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!
That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.
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ChallengerDan
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by ChallengerDan »

CanadianEh wrote:
Bede wrote:Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!
That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.
in theory, maybe. Try to find a broker that will let you sell short a 0.95$ stock. Good luck. risk/reward ration is way too high.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

ChallengerDan wrote:
CanadianEh wrote:
Bede wrote:Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!
That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.
in theory, maybe. Try to find a broker that will let you sell short a 0.95$ stock. Good luck. risk/reward ration is way too high.
That's true, usually stocks need to be over $5. Although some have it above $1.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by teacher »

CanadianEh wrote:
teacher wrote:Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!
Correct, however, did you watch your company have the value YOU created stripped from it and given to Robert Milton and ACE shareholders? Did YOU have to take concessions in spite of the fact that you did your best to make this company run smoothly? If you did and still believe AC pilots are out of line by not giving up more, you're crazy.
Yes actually. WE at Jazz took haircuts twice to save AC money, once during CCAA and again in 2009. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC purchase regional airline assets and sell THAN lease back aircraft that were bought and paid for years prior. Yes WE at Jazz watched several different successful airlines be merged than gutted to become nothing more than a feeder airline for a failing company. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC use our airline as a means to line YOUR shareholders' pockets by creating a trust with a lucrative contract and distribution only to divest itself of the asset THAN claim that it's too expensive but now saddled with a dividend it may one day have trouble paying.

My posts are not meaned as an insult, they are intended as a wake up call to the old guard still fighting yesterdays war. Fight capitalism with capitalism. Come up with new ideas, new ways of achieving the same goals. Change your offer, negotiate something different, better, more with the times. Failure to do so and you might as well sign on the dotted line for TA1.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by CanadianEh »

teacher wrote:
Yes actually. WE at Jazz took haircuts twice to save AC money, once during CCAA and again in 2009. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC purchase regional airline assets and sell THAN lease back aircraft that were bought and paid for years prior. Yes WE at Jazz watched several different successful airlines be merged than gutted to become nothing more than a feeder airline for a failing company. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC use our airline as a means to line YOUR shareholders' pockets by creating a trust with a lucrative contract and distribution only to divest itself of the asset THAN claim that it's too expensive but now saddled with a dividend it may one day have trouble paying.

My posts are not meaned as an insult, they are intended as a wake up call to the old guard still fighting yesterdays war. Fight capitalism with capitalism. Come up with new ideas, new ways of achieving the same goals. Change your offer, negotiate something different, better, more with the times. Failure to do so and you might as well sign on the dotted line for TA1.
I like where you're going with this, but it all comes back to supply and demand.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... ll-120313/

Paul Strachan mentions in this interview the belief that depending on how the binding arbitration goes we could see pilots heading elsewhere for jobs. If you look at the number of pilots, especially EMJ FOs taking a LOA, It's not out of the realm of possibility that pilots will leave. As Paul also mentions when asked "If there are better places to go than AC, why don't they just go?", many AC pilots stick around for the pension and because they want to live and raise their families in Canada.
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by teacher »

Oh I know, supply and demand is simply why Asian and European pilots generally make more than North American ones. I say generally because there are exceptions to every rule. It costs over $100,000 to get a commercial license in Europe. That alone is an instant barrier to entry and limits the pilot pool. In North America we as pilots have been on the wrong side of that curve for a long time. Things are slowly moving back in our favour but we have a LONG way to go. Sadly we may be so used to crap pay that even when it's in our favour we might not know any different :roll:
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ratherbee
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by ratherbee »

altiplano wrote:What is the timeline for the arbitration process?

What kind of proposal is the union putting forward? I assume company will put out TA1?

How is it expected to affect recent / new hires?
90 days I believe.

Actually, we don't know what ACPA has put forward. More than likely big raises, all the jets, and keep the pension. The Company pulled TA1 off the table and offered up much less. Zero raise for the first year, outsource the small jets, and DC for the new hires.

Recent hires are somewhat protected but there will be fewer jobs for any new hires, if at all. No LCC. No Jetstar though either.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Jack Klumpus »

teacher wrote: Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes,

LOL

38k/yr is pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada.

Total pilot salaries amount to no more of 4% of AC's pay structure no? So lets say we lose 1%, this alone will make AC all the money?

LOL
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teacher
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by teacher »

Jack Klumpus wrote:38k/yr is pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada.

Total pilot salaries amount to no more of 4% of AC's pay structure no? So lets say we lose 1%, this alone will make AC all the money?

LOL
Touche, FO pay sucks BUT if you took all wages paid divided by number of airplanes flown it'd be pretty darn good. It just happens to be weighted in the senior pilot and wide body side. I don't disagree that ALL pilots should make more than we do, but when negotiating it's hard to ask for a big raise when your peer group is making as much or less than you. You can't just look at CASH MONEY either, compensation comes in different forms be it wages, pension, benefits, perdiems and even lifestyle/scheduling. Someone might make more than you BUT do they work more? Are their reserve, reassignment or scheduling rules more flexable to the employer?

It's hard to push up the ceiling but dangerously easy to step off the ladder.
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chatman
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by chatman »

Rumor in Wpg.. that mechanics are rolling their toolboxes out of the hangar. I am sure there is a huge investment in those tools.

They are worried that they will be locked out due to bankruptcy of Aveos
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by ragbagflyer »

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