Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

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ChallengerDan
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by ChallengerDan »

Jack In The Box wrote: It wasn't even the union that decided to strike this time, it was management that locked them out, and the government is not allowing them to. So don't play that BS left wing conservative-hating crap.
I guess that pointing out that more than 8000 non-pilots at Air Canada were also due to strike on Monday is not relevant...

That Calin made the two dates coincide is also probably a coincidence... when Raitt had already said she would not let the Machnists union go on strike...

Try bargaining with them now, bud....
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Legacy
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Legacy »

If Ratt is deaming AC an essential service then wouldn't the employees now have an extremely secure job? Isn't she just saying that the gov't won't ever let AC go belly up? Cant do that if AC is an essential service. Now they just have to deal with the WAWCON. I hope the best for you guys. Tired of seeing the Execs living off your childrens plate.
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Troubleshot
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Troubleshot »

What if everyone calls in sick for a day or two? :wink:
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by BE20 Driver »

If Air Canada is an essential service then it's employees should be compensated as such. I am no expert but I doubt that a cop or firefighter with 5-10 years of experience would make $38 000. Our military pilots are essential to the country. They are not paid $38K. Air Canada's pilots should not be making the same salary they were 12 years ago. Mechanics should not be making $10/hour. I am out of the country so I couldn't join you on the picket line. Best I could do was to email my MP, the PM and of course Lisa Raitt. You are essential so bargain as such.

Good luck!
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by TheSuit »

At $264M market cap, the company is essentially worthless. Senior management and labor fighting over who gets the last pennies in the couch cushions while WestJet cheerily takes over your market. Sell the aircraft and routes to someone who knows what they're doing and just wrap this soap opera up.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:At $264M market cap, the company is essentially worthless.
Aren't you forgetting the billions of dollars of revenue that flow through the company every single year? In your world of suits surely that's worth something.

The conservatives aren't fooling anybody with their ridiculous claims of protecting the health and welfare of Canadians, and now that Ms. Raitt has submitted back to work legislation they don't even have to pretend anymore and neither does Air Canada.

This government does corporation's bidding plain and simple. It's obvious with big oil, and it's obvious with Air Canada. The conservatives have as much regard for employee rights under the labour code as they do the parliamentary system and honest elections.

They are an amoral disgrace and they are wrecking this country.
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43S/172E
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by 43S/172E »

Rockie:

A very astute post which of the following anthems best reflect the current government in "Disneyland on the Rideau"

1. http://youtu.be/0nzRPoUxZLE

2. http://youtu.be/BulFwGSi8bc
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slickmag
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by slickmag »

Our forefathers that came back from fighting a Nazi Dictator in WW2 and helped build up this national airline into the greatest national flag carrier would roll over in their grave if they new how the Canadian government keeps helping these American managers/shareholders pull Calin's strings to rape and pillage what was once a great company. This airline makes money and lot's of it, ask yourself how does a national carrier with a monopoly lose $ consistently even after they sold off Jazz, Aeroplan, Tech ops, etc. Collected 2billion from sales, distributes to CEO's, and then says "oh sorry we don't have 2 billion to put into the pension plan shortfall". They higher lawyers who's job it is just to cook books and spin for their side of the table. What we need is a great human being, a leader, a Canadian with Heart, Compassion, and Honesty to bring this airline into something every employee can be proud of, to put food on the table now and in the future. A person who not only cares about the employees but the flying public, a father who wants to be home for his daughters birthday, or grandparents who want to be home for that family reunion. This is not about petty things, it's about doing what's right. The fight against corporate greed, good over evil, Harper and Raitt recent talks to the media are joining the dark side and thats how it will go down in history. There is still time for them to do what's right but for them to say they have the majority of Canadians on their side is absolutely wrong. I have had more friends call or msg me in the last 2 days that want to know why we are being treated this way and telling me that they support my right by law to strike even if it means missing a holiday. As for the health and safety issue, I think Harper and Raitt need to stop lying right now "just be honest" were you never taught that growing up? The web just keeps getting bigger and bigger, I believe the students that are going to Mexico to feast on taquitos and an endless supply of Vodka and Tequila would be safer staying in Canada for the week. I am extremely proud to be a Canadian but the recent treatment of me, to take away our freedoms and rights by this government in power should be questioned by every Canadian citizen. ***Now as I do every November 11- I would like to THANK both my grandfathers who fought for my freedoms so that I may post my opinion's on a forum without fear of retaliation.***
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TheSuit
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by TheSuit »

Rockie wrote:Aren't you forgetting the billions of dollars of revenue that flow through the company every single year? In your world of suits surely that's worth something
$11.6B flowed in, $11.85B flowed out. If I owned the company I would have sat back and watched senior management get paid, pilots get paid, baggage handlers get paid, union officials get paid, banks get paid, GECAS get paid. After all that, I got paid negative $250M.

Have a peak at these two financial statements. The good stuff is on page 2 and 4, respectively.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/inves ... FSN_q4.pdf

http://www.westjet.com/pdf/investorMedi ... 7_2012.pdf

You'll notice that Air Canada has $9.6B in assets, and $13.6B in debt. Air Canada is worth negative $4B. WestJet, on the other hand, has $3.5B in assets and $2.1B in debt. WestJet is worth $1.4B. Even little baby Air Canada (Chorus) is worth $143M.

So in summary, AC loses money, pays no dividend, has no growth potential (in fact, it's shrinking), has a balance sheet worth less than nothing, and is operated by angry, bitter, expensive employees. Great investment. At $264M, your neighborhood Credit Union could probably buy it but doesn't want it. I'm surprised Chorus doesn't buy you and then jack the CPA rate up to 20%. When AC goes belly up they can just take all the aircraft and fly themselves.

Oh and by the way, airlines are federally regulated business. The feds regulated you by giving you a sweetheart loan in 2009 so you can keep operating, they regulated you last year by blocking Emirates so you can keep operating, and now they're regulating you back to work so you can keep operating.
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Rollercoaster Rider
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rollercoaster Rider »

I dont know who the suit is but he seem the only one willing to speak the plain truth here.AC is a long standing valuable icon for Canada that is in a tailspin with nobody willing to change.
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Bede »

Rockie wrote: Aren't you forgetting the billions of dollars of revenue that flow through the company every single year? In your world of suits surely that's worth something.
You are correct, that revenue is worth something. It's worth $264M.
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Rollercoaster Rider
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rollercoaster Rider »

I,ll correct my last statement,AC needs the suits buisness sense but sligmag,s sense of morality.Most employees just want a fair workplace to feel proud of telling thier children.The other half seem just to want the best two years finacially possible and hit the streets with the continued paycheck...
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yycflyguy
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by yycflyguy »

The feds regulated you by giving you a sweetheart loan in 2009 so you can keep operating...
You call a loan at 17.5% a sweetheart deal? What a joke. That was credit card extortion rates. The employees had a wage freeze so they could keep skimming money.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:$11.6B flowed in, $11.85B flowed out.
Correct. And in typical "suit" fashion it must be the fault of the employees. Just once I would love to hear an honest "suit" admit they are incompetent at running a business. Air Canada had a near monopoly for a very long time TheSuit, who do you think f**ked that up, and continues to f**k it up?

Could it possibly be the people making the business decisions? And if so, who is it that needs to be turfed and somebody brighter brought in? Air Canada's been waiting for somebody bright enough to run this business for a long long time.
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Mig29
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Mig29 »

slickmag wrote:Our forefathers that came back from fighting a Nazi Dictator in WW2 and helped build up this national airline into the greatest national flag carrier would roll over in their grave if they new how the Canadian government keeps helping these American managers/shareholders pull Calin's strings to rape and pillage what was once a great company.

Spot on slickmag!! But if you keep talking like this you might be labeled as a "communist" or "socialist" and that is not so cool in today's capitalistic and greedy western society!
slickmag wrote:This airline makes money and lot's of it, ask yourself how does a national carrier with a monopoly lose $ consistently even after they sold off Jazz, Aeroplan, Tech ops, etc. Collected 2billion from sales, distributes to CEO's, and then says "oh sorry we don't have 2 billion to put into the pension plan shortfall"
For Suit and other employee/union thrashers: Do you have anything to say to this??? The employees of this airline gave it ALL they were asked in the last decade and the management STILL can't turn up a profit! PATHETIC!

And one more thing ....you can keep coming here with any financial data all you want but you won't fool me or any other person who is connected to Air Canada in any capacity. Listen, even bigger fishes then these top executives got caught and ended up in jail for fraud - don't think for a minute that this will go on forever like this!
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by TheSuit »

yycflyguy wrote:You call a loan at 17.5% a sweetheart deal? What a joke. That was credit card extortion rates.
That's called the golden rule. And I wouldn't say it's extortion, I'd say it's incentive to give the taxpayers back their money. The price reflects the fact you were insolvent and may not have been able to pay it back at all.
Rockie wrote:Just once I would love to hear an honest "suit" admit they are incompetent at running a business.
Hahahaha me too. But you generally don't get to the top saying things like that.
Rockie wrote:Could it possibly be the people making the business decisions?
We are in complete agreement here. This is going come as a total shock to you, but I like employees. Employees do the things that run the business, like make the widgets or like fly the planes and fix them. And happy employees are productive employees. Almost all managers have been employees themselves, they get this concept.

My beef is with union bosses who are nothing more than politicians but are somehow allowed to make labor decisions. Every AC union boss I've heard lately sounds like some ranting idiot pandering to their political base. They sit in a room and bargain an agreement that they turn around and disparage the next day as if they had nothing to do with it. They talk about 2003 and their grandfathers fighting in the war and sacrifice and almost everything under the sun except what their plan is to make the business competitive. These guys are basically executives, but never lead anyone, or come up with any business ideas or make any tough decisions. Their only job is to create conflict which they can solve to look like heroes. The ACPA boss was on CBC the other day and said almost nothing of value. All he said was the company can't do this, they can't do that, this is what it was like in 1995, and I don't understand what management wants to do so I'm against it. Did he have any ideas about what should be done? Nope, but this guy is in charge of making hundreds of millions in contract decisions.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rockie »

TheSuit wrote:yycflyguy wrote:
You call a loan at 17.5% a sweetheart deal? What a joke. That was credit card extortion rates.


That's called the golden rule. And I wouldn't say it's extortion, I'd say it's incentive to give the taxpayers back their money. The price reflects the fact you were insolvent and may not have been able to pay it back at all.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you no longer call this a "sweetheart loan", and now just call it simply a loan that Air Canada paid a very, very steep interest rate for.
TheSuit wrote:My beef is with union bosses who are nothing more than politicians but are somehow allowed to make labor decisions.
Our current union officers have only been in this position a very short time and they are unquestionably pilots first, most definitely not politicians. I don't like to mention names on a public forum, but Paul Strachan (president) is not as capable as a polished media savvy politician or even an experienced union professional like the CAW or CUPE can put in front of the camera. What Paul brings to the table is a pilot's belief in how our profession should be treated buttressed to whatever extent is possible in a short period of time by professional media training to make the verbal message resonate as much as possible with politicians and the public. I think he's done a pretty fantastic job especially considering he's a pilot.

Our current MEC and Industrial Action Committee have demonstrated (to me at least) a depth of understanding and preparation for what this fight entails that, I have to be honest, impresses me. And if you read any of my many posts on the retirement issue you will plainly see I am no cheerleader for ACPA. This bunch gets it. And they are pilots, not politicians or professional union people.

Our union's grasp of the current situation and their conduct of the battle so far, not to mention the discipline and unity of the pilot group in carrying out that campaign has made me once again proud to be an Air Canada pilot.
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lot lizard
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by lot lizard »

I am 100% in agreement with your pilot group but..

You keep posting EMOTIONAL arguments;
History, pride, morality, fairness, iconic and we gave everything in 2003 is not a basis for negotiating. Your management DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about your feelings!

Your management only care about money, that's why corporations exist. Corporations dont care about you, your family or even long term viability, just short term profit.

To the pilot group, safety and professionalism are cardinal points in your daily operational work ethic. The AC pilot group has a very high respect from the rest of the pilot community for operating safely in one of the worlds harshest environments something your management take for granted. To your management, its just some mission statement that they can stand behind when its convenient.

You need to sweep aside all your feelings and look at the facts of how this industry has changed and will continue to do so in the next 20+ years. $110 million in profit on currency exchange on $10.8 Billion in revenue in 2010FY and a $200+ million loss last year is far from acceptable for sustainability. Blame who you want but those are the facts.

You need to get a professional negotiator for this, why do you have a pilot directly negotiating? I'm sure Paul is a great guy to fly with and operates with the highest level of professionalism but he should be an advisor to a professional labour negotiator. Someone who is emotionally detached and can spell out the realities of whats going on.

AC is run by numbers people not airline people, you guys are in for a rough ride for the long term. Talk to the Qantas boys.

Good luck

PS. To the morons who waste fuel, what are you proving? Put your big boy pants on and be a professional!
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by Rockie »

Neither the President of the union or any of the elected representatives are doing any negotiating. There is a negotiating committee dedicated to that function backed up by whatever professional labour and other expertise they need. In this instance professional negotiators who themselves have nothing at stake would not be helpful especially when the company has not found it necessary to negotiate under the current government. We are talking to a wall who only talks back to issue ultimatums.

The emotional arguments as you put them are for the benefit of the troops. Believe me when I say NOBODY is under any misconception how little Air Canada management cares about the welfare or dignity of its employees, and NOBODY is wasting any effort appealing to their humanity or generosity.

By the way, you have no idea just how professional we are being in the face of this onslaught, so I suggest you worry about your own pants.
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Last edited by Rockie on Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

Post by BE20 Driver »

It seems to me that after ten years of concessions, employee salary is not the issue.

No matter how you feel about the loans or the business model, the real issue is the government removing the right of the employees to negotiate a fair deal. How you define fair is up to you.

Several people have suggested emailing or calling their MP and of course Ms. Raitt (labour minister). Don´t forget the PM, the leaders of the opposition parties. In the current majority government, they can not stop the bill from going through but they can raise the issue, stall the vote and get the media to pick up the cause. To that list I would also add the labour critics for each of the opposition parties.

Here´s a list for the less than energetic:

Your MP first.last@parl.gc.ca
Labour Minister lisa.raitt@parl.gc.ca
PM stephen.harper@parl.gc.ca
Leader of the Opposition (NDP) Nycole.Turmel@parl.gc.ca
Leader of the Liberal Party bob.rae@parl.gc.ca
Leader of the BQ
Leader of the Green Party Elizabeth.May@parl.gc.ca
Labour Critic NDP yvon.godin@parl.gc.ca
Labour Critic Liberal rodger.cuzner@parl.gc.ca
Labour Critic BQ andre.bellavance@parl.gc.ca
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