Air Canada sending Embraer 175/190s to Express

[rudder]

Neither the Federal Government who decides who flies where (regardless of whether or not pilots march around in little circles on Parliament Hill), through Transport Canada, nor the customers, wants to revisit this problem any more, and that is precisely why the Feds reached in the flight deck door and switched on the autopilot. They've had enough of it. The plan that emerges will likely be the longest-term viable solution possible, for the Company, and the shareholders. You'd have to hopefully believe that a CCAA bath in red ink for all the ancillary businesses connected to AC is the least desirable option from the standpoint of the Feds' own mandate to protect the business economy, but don't rule CCAA out until you've Googled the history of complete airline tankings in North America. They're entirely common and they happen regularly, and they happen overnight without warning, just like Aveos.

Sooner or later people will figure out that unlike his predecessors, CR is less concerned with the size of the AC employee roster than he is in creating or enhancing shareholder value. In his world, subbing out work but protecting the revenue stream is OK, perhaps even the preferred course of action.

To say that the Feds have had enough of AC is a gross understatement. But right now, CR looks more reasonable than AC labour so he has their ear. Governments are not interested in long term solutions as they are by their very nature shortlived. They look to punt the ball down the road, that's all. To them, long term is the next election cycle.

Unless and until AC labour starts to sound more reasonable and to offer better solutions than CR, they will be effectively ignored by the Federal Government. The government does not want to listen to groups complaining about their problems, they want to hear credible plans for solving them and then they might assist. Got any?

[accumulous]

Unless and until AC labour starts to sound more reasonable and to offer better solutions than CR, they will be effectively ignored by the Federal Government. The government does not want to listen to groups complaining about their problems, they want to hear credible plans for solving them and then they might assist. Got any?

WestJet has certain other economies of operation as in crewing to a single aircraft type, but from the standpoint of comparing if any competitive economies exist in their pilot operations, it would be interesting to see the nuts and bolts of the WestJet pilot contract.

It's still surprising that ACPA hasn't come up with a benefit analysis to the end of mandatory retirement coming in 7 months and how different scenarios on that new crewing landscape play into the health of the pension and the bottom line operationally, and really what kind of specific numbers can they come up with to show an arbitrator but it's looking like there won't be a chance at this late date to capitalize on that.

It's looking more like ACPA would have to come up with a fairly comprehensive new direction in terms of a contract, something really major, that meets the parameters of the competition, and not just making a few little changes. In terms of FOS you'd have to think ACPA needs a really new full approach to this problem if they hope to be selected.

[Fanblade]

They have to crew airframes so they have to provide the personnel according to the crewing parameters that currently exist. That's nothing more than daily business requirements. Today has a future. Tomorrow's future depends entirely on what happens tomorrow, not today. The half life of an airline future is one day. There are departments that handle all that crewing stuff down in the engine room.

When the landscape changes a memo goes to the department of crewing. How can you possibly do that until you have a definitive heading change whistled down to the boiler room? Status quo will occur right up until AC's Final Offer is stamped, and delivered. Then the call goes to the bridge for a heading change. Then the horn comes out of the cradle and the rest of the ship is brought into line.

So you believe AC will not have any aircraft in its fleet between 90 - 146 Seats?

I think even entertaining that idea is ridiculous.

[Fanblade]

Sooner or later people will figure out that unlike his predecessors, CR is less concerned with the size of the AC employee roster than he is in creating or enhancing shareholder value. In his world, subbing out work but protecting the revenue stream is OK, perhaps even the preferred course of action.

You lost me. Isn't that the route concern that triggered scope language in the first place? How is it new? Creating value for owners? From what I know of AC wouldn't that be a refreshing change?

LOOKS LIKE I MADE AN ERROR

While reviewing something else I came across the LCC reference within AC's latest proposal. I read the statement AC will negotiate LCC terms with ACPA if required, incorrectly the first time assuming that meant the LCC was off the table for now.

I stated such in an earlier post. That is not correct.

AC latest proposal does have an LCC in it. It makes reference to a Letter of Commitment identical to the one within TA1. The negotiate with ACPA statement is only if issues, other than already addressed within what was already agreed to in TA1, come up.

So for clarity. LCC as was within TA1. Wages, working conditions ect. Still very much part of AC's latest proposal.

[accumulous]

So you believe AC will not have any aircraft in its fleet between 90 - 146 Seats?

I think even entertaining that idea is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous - that would presume that the airline had folded and was broken up wouldn't it? You have to maintain a feeder network somehow. As suggested, you would hope that CCAA is not an option under the same Government that values minimizing damage to the economy, because a CCAA would hose down a lot of business with red ink. Having said that, what FOS scenario best meets that kind of guarantee. It's all in the business plan. FOS. Which side is going to have the business plan that the Arbitrator selects.

[Plim Sole]

But AC would have those aircraft in its fleet.... just operated by another company.
Sorry to p$$$ you off but that is the plain truth.

I think you meant to say its ridiculous to believe that AC would not have 90-150 seat aircraft in its fleet operated by ACPA.

Which brings us right back neatly to post #1 of this thread.

[Fanblade]

The vultures are circling at the prospect of an arbitrator gutting ACPA's scope language.

I would like clarification as to who the "vultures" are?

Found one.

Plim,

How about YOU read the thread before you post?

Contrary to the desire of some, outsourcing 90 seats and below is what was in the corps last tabled offer. I do understand where the 120 seat rumor came from. It is in the thread above.

I guess this goes to show just how powerful putting out an initial offer and then publishing it is.


Sorry to disappoint.

Despite all the rhetoric here? The number will likely move south from there. FOS forces everyone toward each other. Arbitration with a previous TA? The neutral territory gets even slimmer because of the jurisprudence. Very rare for a previous TA not to be imposed in arbitration. The onus is on the party trying to extract themselves.  That would be ACPA in this case and we don't have a hope. We would have to prove the TA irrational.

My guess? Closest one to TA1 with some tweaks. AC would be crazy to have tabled their final position now. ACPA would just trump it by a nickel. And visa versa.

If TA1 is any indication of what the Corp wants? 75 seats. Increased domestic ASM's. Multiple CPA''s. Trans boarder JV with UA language.

What AC has on the table at the moment is very similar to TA1 in concept. The position on each concept just slightly worse.

What do you think they are looking for. I don't think it takes a brain surgeon.

[Localizer]

All this info from a new hire Embraer F/O ... must be gospel ...

Wake up from your dream .. the aviation industry as we all know it is history. Welcome to the "new world order".

[Fanblade]

Like I said. Voice of one.

You would be surprised just how many AC pilots have not read the latest offer from the Corp.

Again published on Aeronet.

My count so far is no one.

Seriously. No one.

I am sure some have, just not the ones I have asked. I find it odd.

Not saying the offer is good. Just very odd that people don't know what it is.

I may be junior however I was taught to reed.

[haironfire]

Keep up the good work fanblade, it sounds like you are smarter than the rest. Being junior makes no difference and does not minimise your opinion. Some of the best pilots sit at the bottom of the list

[duranium]

Some of the best pilots sit at the bottom of the list

Quite an inflated view of yourself, I might say. Windbag readily comes to mind

[palm90]

Some of the best pilots sit at the bottom of the list

Quite an inflated view of yourself, I might say. Windbag readily comes to mind

I also had a good laugh at that one.

[rudder]

Despite all the rhetoric here? The number will likely move south from there. FOS forces everyone toward each other. Arbitration with a previous TA? The neutral territory gets even slimmer because of the jurisprudence. Very rare for a previous TA not to be imposed in arbitration. The onus is on the party trying to extract themselves.  That would be ACPA in this case and we don't have a hope. We would have to prove the TA irrational.

My guess? Closest one to TA1 with some tweaks. AC would be crazy to have tabled their final position now. ACPA would just trump it by a nickel. And visa versa.

If TA1 is any indication of what the Corp wants? 75 seats. Increased domestic ASM's. Multiple CPA''s. Trans boarder JV with UA language.

What AC has on the table at the moment is very similar to TA1 in concept. The position on each concept just slightly worse.

What do you think they are looking for. I don't think it takes a brain surgeon.

Couple of points.

First of all, the underlying principle of the collective bargaining process is that proposals made with the intent of achieving a consensual agreement are 'without prejudice'. Therefore, AC can argue that both TA1 and the March 7, 2012 proposals were made under the auspice of achieving an agreement within the traditional bargaining process, not necessarily the best agreement.

Secondly, the company offers were all made in advance of the terms of reference for the arbitrator as set within the legislation. It gives AC a great deal of latitude to attempt to justify a more extreme position taking into account the references to liquidity, benchmarking, and long term stability.

Lastly, AC has at its disposal an almost unlimited amount of resources to demonstrate competitiveness, cost analysis, industry trends and forecasts, and estimated cash drains going likely a decade into the future. They also have the luxury of drawing up the corporate strategic plan which is unlikely to resemble status quo. I wonder what credible resources that ACPA will bring to bear in response.

I would not be so assured that the outcome will fall within the very narrow range that you have described. Yes, the IAM will wear their rejected agreement. But I do not believe that CR's goals in respect of the pilot agreement will be as conservative considering the unique opportunity that he has been presented.

[BverLuver]

Some of the best pilots sit at the bottom of the list

Quite an inflated view of yourself, I might say. Windbag readily comes to mind

I also had a good laugh at that one.

Why, because all the pilots at the top of the seniority list are the the best and the only good ones in the company? Who's view of themselves are inflated? And you guys wonder why the older group is so despised and ACPA is fractured. I can't even begin to tell you how happy I am with my decisions in life and that AC/ACPA was a path never taken. I could never have worked with a group so insistent in the degradation of everything surrounding them.

BL

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

The only thing assured is death and taxes.

If you read the offer? It is TA1 without the original simplification language.

It is my understanding that what you described is called receding horizons and is illegal. They can not back track from their last tabled offer. Yes there maybe an argument wrt TA1. Likely in fact. It doesn't matter though as they have proceeded though conciliation to lockout and ended with the same tabled position. Again sans the simplification language.

Bill C33 refers to flexibility and industry standard with reference to competition. Show me the supportive evidence to your hypothesis that industry standard is above 90 seats.

Is the legislation a get out of jail card for the corporation wrt the realities of a post bankruptcy competitive environment in North America? The realities of international LCC's? Most likely. I might even lean toward an all out yes. Is it a licence to gut? No. If AC tried they risk losing. Blowing a once in a lifetime opportunity to restructure/reset a CBA to industry standard without resorting to CCAA.

[haironfire]

I do not work for your company therefore I am not at the bottom of your list. I am quite senior at another company as an ACP but I respect people junior to me. Everyone has different experience, knowledge, and abilities. To say that someone below you in seniority isn't as knowledgeable and less of a pilot is very disrespectful and displays your own character flaws. Did someone say "Windbag" ?

[Localizer]

Fanblade,

Why do you keep referring to TA1? .. Its nothing more then toilet paper at this point. All bets are off .. the gloves too.

"The Shark" smells blood in the water ..

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,

Why do you keep referring to TA1? .. Its nothing more then toilet paper at this point. All bets are off .. the gloves too.

"The Shark" smells blood in the water ..

Localizer,

Remember the vulture comment?

The reference to TA1 is because it is not gone from the perspective of AC. All the corporation has done is repackaged the concepts. It is certainly worse than TA1 at the moment. But all the elements that were new? Still there. Groupings. Less training. Pension. LCC. Productivity increases via reserved how draft and overtime is paid rather than banked ect ect ..... All there minus as I said the simplification changes.

If it walks like a duck.......

So Mr. Blood and gore. What is industry standard in North America for scope? The company has tabled 90. Is it 90? There is some limited 90 at USAir. But what is the standard at the competition? I know the number. I will give you a hint. It is most likely represented by the number in..............TA1. Wud ya know . But hey there is some 90 out there so ya never know.

What floors me most about this thread is the apparent apatite by some pilots to see other pilots gutted. Anything pulled from mainline will go to the lowest bidder. 5-10 years later it will go for tender again and to the lowest bidder. You guys understand this i can tell. Why does anyone want to maximize the amount of jobs in this category?

Spite?

Anyway I will sign off. I didn't post for the blood and gore seekers.

I posted to ratchet down the rhetoric.

[vortac]

I can't help but think that the AC pilots have little to no leverage left to negotiate.

Most of your rights to manage the situation and outcome have been taken away from you by the government. Judging by the comments sections of just about every AC related article that I have read leads me to believe the public gives you little sympathy. After a decade of alienation from other pilot groups, I don't really think you have much sympathy from the rest the unionized pilot groups in Canada. Particularly at the biggest CPA partner that most of you resent. Internally, seniority seems to be a common dividing factor within you group. Those who have it, seem to care little about those that don't and those that don't resent those that do because they know there is little chance things will be remotely the same when and if they ever do get there.

Swaying the public opinion is also getting you nowhere and in effect has only led your union president to being threatened with his termination of employment. I cannot even begin to imagine his level of stress right now and I seriously think he is doubting if this is all even personally worth it for him and his health.

75 years does not guarantee anything.

[mbav8r]

So Mr. Blood and gore. What is industry standard in North America for scope? The company has tabled 90. Is it 90? There is some limited 90 at USAir. But what is the standard at the competition? I know the number. I will give you a hint. It is most likely represented by the number in..............TA1. Wud ya know . But hey there is some 90 out there so ya never know.

Industry standard means nothing to a corporation in dire straights. How do you think industry standard gets to where it is? Someone starts it and others follow suit. So if AC, for example tenders a CPA for 120 seats and under,5 years down the road that'll be industry standard.

What floors me most about this thread is the apparent apatite by some pilots to see other pilots gutted.

Summed up nicely by vortac, "After a decade of alienation from other pilot groups, I don't really think you have much sympathy from the rest the unionized pilot groups in Canada. Particularly at the biggest CPA partner that most of you resent."

Anything pulled from mainline will go to the lowest bidder. 5-10 years later it will go for tender again and to the lowest bidder. You guys understand this i can tell. Why does anyone want to maximize the amount of jobs in this category?

You see it's like this, we may do it for less now, but we'll be making more in the long run and the cycle will continue. It's kinda like when your group offered to fly the RJs for less to keep us from flying them.

Spite?

Thanks for the C4s and all the other favors you've done for us!