Air Canada sending Embraer 175/190s to Express

[c170b53]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

[Fanblade]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

C170,

I didn't understand it.

It is easy to be negative right now. It is a CR and KH hallmark. Fear. And lots of it. Makes people behave irrationally. Do things they normally wouldn't. In this case agree to things they normally wouldn't.

Lost,

Middle management is a vital component of fear building and maintenance. Trust me unless they are at the executive level they are just preaching from the play book they have been given. A play book that has been rapidly changing. I wonder if they have been doing their amendments?

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

[Localizer]

The vultures are circling at the prospect of an arbitrator gutting ACPA's scope language.

I would like clarification as to who the "vultures" are?

[accumulous]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

C170,

I didn't understand it.

It is easy to be negative right now. It is a CR and KH hallmark. Fear. And lots of it. Makes people behave irrationally. Do things they normally wouldn't. In this case agree to things they normally wouldn't.

Lost,

Middle management is a vital component of fear building and maintenance. Trust me unless they are at the executive level they are just preaching from the play book they have been given. A play book that has been rapidly changing. I wonder if they have been doing their amendments?

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

The Arbitrator will give it to Joe Blow if he has a convincing argument from CR that Joe Blow will get it anyway by accepting ACPA's offer, depending on what that is. Two offers, High Noon. Take a wild guess who's holding the Buntline Special.

So far we got the ball rolling by taking out Ads in every newspaper in the country fingering CR. Did taking out coast to coast Ads mentioning the CEO drive the last spike thru any offer that’s previously been on the table? We always seem to get ourselves into the quicksand and we all know what happens if you try thrashing around in quicksand. It just gets a whole bunch quicker.

In equestrian terms it’s a bit like whipping the living daylights out of your horse before you even get on it. Two horseshoes to the head is probably best symbolized by a hat lying at the bottom of the Ad with nothing in it. Hi, we’re here for the Arbitration. By the way we just hard-copied 30 million customers about you in the Press. How are we doing so far.

We better come up with something better than that or,

"A Message from the Flight Deck" will become something like,

"A Message from Jetstar - We Just Got Bigger"

[Fanblade]

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

The Arbitrator will give it to Joe Blow if he has a convincing argument from CR that Joe Blow will get it anyway by accepting ACPA's offer, depending on what that is. Two offers, High Noon. Take a wild guess who's holding the Buntline Special.

Name one. Yes I understand what FOS is. Yes I understand it is weighted in favor of the corporation.

I also understand it is rare for an arbitrator to not impose a previous agree to TA. In respect to this arbitration as it is FOS. Likely the closest to TA1.

By agreeing to it. It is a statement by AC that it meets their needs. The same applies to us whether we like it or not. I think the regional landscape has changed since last year and as a result AC would like further movement on scope. When you want 15 more seats. You ask for 30. Right. Since this is final selection they have a shot.

FWIW. TA1 would also have seen more 705's at Jazz and more ASM's 75 seats and below.

If you would like some insight into failed TA's and jurisprudence read the CUPE arbitration. It is extremely rare for a failed TA not to be imposed if the situation ends in binding arbitration.

[accumulous]

That almost sounds like negotiation. AC probably already pulled the FOS trigger. The bullet's just not here yet.

[bearinmind]

We are mixing 2 situations and evaluating them the same. They are both a kick in the junk so its easy to think they are the same.

Moodys report, is saying that we are headed for CCAA. They are probably right. Everything that happens after CCAA is not going to happen with an arbitrator, its going to happen behind closed doors and will emerge after the filing. The new investors will make all the decisions on Scope, CPA and who gets what pieces of the pie. The ones with the most money will get the best parts.

Arbitrator report. They have language that all but prevents the arbitrator in ruling against the company. They have to make a decision that is fair but also that will leave the company sustainable. The arbitrator has to then prove that the pilot plan is sustainable long term and they probably cant do that easily. Its easier just to select the company plan.

The moodys report is the trump card. We are valuation is going down and we are going to have a hard time getting loans and the banks are going to start calling our loans. If we have a small cash crunch we are done. Its just a matter of time.

Post CCAA, Jazz is a successfull regional, they have 1500 pilots (guessing) and they make money (how they do it is arguable, lets move on) They are geared to take this business and its seamless and they have cash, expect them to do what they are doing, but more of it.

Sky Regional, has 100 (no idea realy but probably not more than 100) pilots but an OC for a seasonal operation and all the know how to start up right away. They have trained and experienced crews, they will be the new AC vacations.

GGN will also increase their flying. They are very successfull at can/us domestic operation, have a dash 8 I think and operate jets. They also have money with their parent company.

I just thank the man above that the pensions are protected in Canada.

[Fanblade]

Bearinmind,

AC does not have a near term solvency issue barring an unexpected event (911/Sars) The credit agencies are concerned with labor. Advanced bookings affecting the cash position. Then affecting covenants. Standard and poors puts the risk number around 1.5 B. They have not down graded yet. They put AC on watch. With good reason don't you think? Yes a wildcat could kill the place. But this isn't much different than the norm. Airlines only carry a month or two of liquidity most of which is covered by covenants. Capital expenditures are low until the arrival of the 787.

Medium term the story is different. Without change AC will not weather the next down turn. Will not attract financing for the 787 and so on. No 787? Bye bye. It is our future.

So yes. This is why the government intervention. To prevent the medium term course we are on. Yes the corporation will get what it needs. Why because we won't/can't do it ourselves. Because failure of AC is bad public policy. Because the tax payer ain't going to pay. Because Canadian CCAA laws won't allow AC to do what it needs to do.

However it won't be worse than already tabled.

As fir pension. AC will not pay your pension deficit. They have said as much. We figure it out or it will be done for us in 2014. They don't need CCAA to do it. Unless you are out of here before the change happens? You will eat some of the deficit. The 15% solvency deficit spread only over active employees is closer to 30%`

[altiplano]

Has the company or ACPA submitted a proposal for the arbitration yet?

If so, what are the key points?

Who is/are the arbitrator(s)?

[hithere]

Fanblade,
Who the hell are you? I presumed you were in the ACPA MEC until in a previous post you mentioned that you are new to AC and living with AC's pathetic reserve rules. How does a relatively new hire have such a privileged insight to the ACPA's and management's proposals?0Me I'm just a lowly Jazz pilot but you seem to have extensive knowledge of AC's and ACPA's FOS proposal.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,
Who the hell are you? I presumed you were in the ACPA MEC until in a previous post you mentioned that you are new to AC and living with AC's pathetic reserve rules. How does a relatively new hire have such a privileged insight to the ACPA's and management's proposals?0Me I'm just a lowly Jazz pilot but you seem to have extensive knowledge of AC's and ACPA's FOS proposal.

I am not in the know at all. I am an E190 FO. This is my first experience in a unionized environment. I probably have a pro business slant as I came from a family business environment. I very much doubt the present ACPA leadership would like my comments. I think more like the previous MEC. My problem with the previous MEC was not that they didn't understand our reality. They did. They blew it with their protect themselves an.d let everyone behind rot attitude.

When I heard the words "we threw new hires under the bus" come out of their mouth at the road show for TA1?

When I saw pension increases if you got out before 2014 but cuts for everyone else?

When I saw 25k raises for 777CA but zero for New hires over first 4 years?

When it was pointed out that cuts to FO and RP formula pay were made?

IMO a very damming indictment of the actions of those who got it. Of those who may have squandered the memberships only real chance to have a say in how change takes place.

So who the hell am I? Probably a single voice. A pointless voice. But I did think it worthwhile to attempt to ratchet down the fear, particularly for my fellow newbies. If I wrote like this on the ACPA forum I would get eaten alive.

But to you question.

AC has been publishing and talking about their offer with employees since about the end of January. ACPA has also done it once. I understand this is unusual. I have also been told it might be crossing the line wrt negotiating with employees rather than the union. Nevertheless it is happening and the information is wide open if you want it.

The changing company proposals are on Aeronet for all to read under RA messages.

Again I don't listen to words. Much of it is propaganda. Actions and written submissions in bargaining only.

To be clear I don't know what the FOS from ACPA or AC will look like. I'm sure that will be closely guarded.

I am working on the basis that receding horizons negotiations are illegal. You can not put something on the table then pull it. All changes must be in the direction of resolution, not away from it, or it is bargaining in bad faith.

So worst case? That would be the last offer from AC which is published on Aeronet.

This is just my opinion. But it appears to me that CR likes to use fear as leverage. In an effort to stimulate fear he tabled, then published, the corporations initial offer. The union in an effort to engage the membership ran with the fear.

The result was predictable.

This leaves me rather unimpressed with just about everybody.

I know that is a rather arrogant remark to make. However it is how I see it.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Thank you fanblade,you are a credit to your profession with your honest post of the reality that exist within ACPA.The top half of the pyramid will want your head for talking out of school.All swandered the chance to have a profitable enterprise at merger because the top are only interested in the status quo until they get there chance to get out with the most.Even now people like Rockie would blame it all on managment rather than admit that unions are the reason that that much middle managment is required to administer the many rules that exist within these complex contracts.Westjet exist only because they get to function and expliot all the inefficiencies they observe from our side of the fence.

[c170b53]

Even now people like C170B53 would blame it all on management rather than admit that unions are the reason that that much middle management is required to administer the many rules that exist

(Sorry Rockie I'm just aspiring to gain the same notoriety as you seem to have been blessed with).
There has always been a tendency of those soon to leave, wishing to gain the most in both camps.
I see mostly good people in the trenches. Most are just trying to do their jobs for the sake of the own sanity despite the nonsense. After all why would anyone let this place change them. The real question is "What's it going to take to have them lead by example"?
A ticket agent today mentioned a noticeable amount of fresh new hires in management in YVR boarding ahead of 30 year plus workers. I know its always been that way but its not team building.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Even now people like C170B53 would use typical diversionary ACPA tactics to aviod discussing issues at the heart of the matter.

A ticket agent today mentioned a noticeable amount of fresh new hires in management in YVR boarding ahead of 30 year plus workers. I know its always been that way but its not team building.

Most probably on buisness travel same as deadheading captains that go before 30 years plus workers on standby.

[CanadianEh]

Lost in Saigon et al:

Just because you heard it from a manager, does not make it true.

If you want some good insight into how this sort thing works, watch this video "Confessions of a Union Buster - The Role of the Supervisor."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m96MtALXjsA

This is likely one of the many tactics that management is going to use to create fear and ultimately fracture the unity among the pilots. The only way they will win is if they fracture your unity.

Keep calm and carry on, in solidarity.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Overall, there is a total lack of respect from CanadianEh towards the rest of employees that arguably make the most significant financial impact on the company. There are now lots of things up in the air including whether anyone will continue getting a pension or whether their jobs will be outsourced to other operators. It's a mess.

Not my words

[bcflyer]

If the master plan is and always has been to get rid of all the EMB and 319's, then perhaps one of you experts can ask your sources to explain why AC has been hiring pilots as fast as they can for many months now? Why would you hire a group of pilots, train them and then lay them off?

[pika]

I'm no expert but if you have never heard of (or know any of) the guys on course or in line indoc who hit the street with 4.8 hours on type when the music stopped I suggest you keep your eyes and ears open.

[pika]

Double

[ChallengerDan]

If its any indication, Aveos were hiring people up to two weeks before they closed.
I know a guy that got hired and trained on the first week, worked on the floor the next week, had to take forced bank time the subsequent week (cash back to neg) and that lead to the Sunday closure.
Usually, hiring managers will be filling requirements up to the very day the requirements are changed. It happens all the time and everywhere.
I am not sure whether these E jets and baby bus rumours are true or not, but don't rely on hiring to say that they aren't!