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Back to the table, and positive energy

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Caballero

Post subject: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:30 am

Rank 1

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:02 am
Posts: 41
Location: Canada

Apparently the corporation and ACPA are going back to the table with assistance from the arbitrator.

This is the first positive news in months. This forum is beyond depressing, and the culture out there can be toxic.

The world and Air Canada will keep turning. Let's use this opportunity to put some renewed faith back in Air Canada, and do everything in our power to turn this mentality around!!

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teacher

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:40 am

Rank (9)

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:25 pm
Posts: 1871

Very good news! Here is your chance to avoid FOS. This isn't about grand demands it's about being part of the solution. I hope ACPA took the time in the last few weeks to come up with a back up plan that AC could actually live with.

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Norwegianwood

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 am

Rank 4

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:16 pm
Posts: 236

teacher wrote:

I hope ACPA took the time in the last few weeks to come up with a back up plan that AC could actually live with.

Doesn't matter what they (acpa) bring to the table at this stage, the arb will decide what's good for the good of the company not acpa, negotiations are over this is all about what the appointed government employee thinks, good luck to all........... NW

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:18 am

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

Let's not get carried away with faith in Air Canada management. They are snakes who are coming to the table ONLY because they think they have to for some as yet undetermined reason. Up until yesterday these same clowns would not give us the time of day.

Something happened, and it wasn't a sudden epiphany that the employees are their most valuable asset.

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Lost in Saigon

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:48 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:35 am
Posts: 809

I think the company is starting realize there is no way they can survive without the pilots being onside. Final Offer Solution will not bring the pilots onside.

Now we have senior pilots taking earlier retirements to get out of this mess and lock in their pension status before the rules change. This will mean A LOT of extra training that they didn't plan on. The company needs pay grouping to reduce the cost of training replacements for these senior guys and they can't risk Final Offer Solution not giving it to them.

I bet the Board of Directors told Calin "Fix this now or we will FIRE your sorry ass!"

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truedude

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:30 pm
Posts: 98

Lost in Saigon wrote:

You sir, are a very delusional individual. Let's hope your negotiation team isn't going to the table with the same fantasy.

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Lost in Saigon

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:45 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:35 am
Posts: 809

I am just offering an opinion.

Bill C-33 is totally in the company's favour. How do YOU explain their willingness to negotiate right now when all they have to do is wait it out until FOS?

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:58 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Lost in Saigon wrote:

I am just offering an opinion.

Bill C-33 is totally in the company's favour. How do YOU explain their willingness to negotiate right now when all they have to do is wait it out until FOS?

Have you ever seen the movie 'SAW' (I/II/III/etc)?

CR is giving ACPA one more chance to cut off a limb or it will be done for them. Plus, if ACPA does a deal then it must take ownership of it (as opposed to an arbitrated settlement).

This is an opportunity for leaders to lead. Think long term and the decisions are not nearly as difficult to make. Instead of worrying about the next pilot that has not even been hired yet (and may not even be required after this deal is done), start worrying about the ones that are on the list NOW. They need a company that will still be here in 30 years, not just 5.

It ain't rocket science.

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Black Cat

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:14 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:51 am
Posts: 79

The uncertainty ACPA is the same for CR. if CR allows BA then and the arbitrator sides with ACPA it could mean certain death for him too. Good luck.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:19 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Black Cat wrote:

The uncertainty ACPA is the same for CR. if CR allows BA then and the arbitrator sides with ACPA it could mean certain death for him too. Good luck.

CR has an educational and work background that will have him solidly back in to a 7 figure income almost overnight. Are the AC pilots similarly equipped?

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:37 am

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

"Now we have senior pilots taking earlier retirements to get out of this mess and lock in their pension status before the rules change."

Speaking from experience(not as an AC pilot), the older we get the less enthralled we become on our working lives and finally "it's time" creeps in. Our decision is made and it is final, bid adieu and be gone.

Air Canada(as good as it is - and it is good) is no different from other organizations be it public(where I came from) or private.

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tractor747

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:54 am
Posts: 81

How many senior pilots can we expect to retire and are they going to retire within the next few days? weeks? months?

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Lost in Saigon

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:17 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:35 am
Posts: 809

That is impossible to tell with any accuracy. It averages about 100 per year.

I heard there are 5 B777 Captains taking early retirement in May alone. There might be as many as 10 more going at the "Normal" age 60 in May.

5 unplanned retirements in may is going to cause problems with the summer schedule.

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tractor747

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:17 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:54 am
Posts: 81

I thought with the contract being decided within days or weeks and the chance the arbitrator might be making that ruling that there would be a lot more than 5 777 captains leaving.

thanks

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Obbie

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:24 am

Rank 3

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 137
Location: CYYZ

I was in the sim here at Qatar with a just hired AC 777 Captain, doing his training.

Nice guy but he couldn't fly a raw data ILS to save his life,
and it is a mandatory item on the flight test here.

Turn off the autopilot now and then folks, it was hard watching this type rated
and experienced 777 Captain desperately try to remember how to fly.

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ToolShed

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:53 pm

Rank 1

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:58 pm
Posts: 21
Location: LINNG

Obbie wrote:

ummm...thread drift.

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Fanblade

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:13 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:50 am
Posts: 268

Lost in Saigon wrote:

I am just offering an opinion.

Bill C-33 is totally in the company's favour. How do YOU explain their willingness to negotiate right now when all they have to do is wait it out until FOS?

Because it isn't as in favor of the company as you or many make it sound. Someone throws down TA1, and based on jurisprudence alone, this is done. Based on the wording within c-33 it is pretty much done. What were the words CR used regarding TA1. Good for ACPA, good for Air Canada. in light of AC agreeing to TA1 without even a strike threat? They obviously liked it. Thought it met their needs for sustainability moving forward. ACPA is not going to escape the concepts introduced in TA1. The opposite is true. Diverging from TA1, if AC feels they have new needs, poses FOS risk.

Have things changed since then?

Yes.

On the pension front. New hires did not go DC but rather hybrid in other CBAs.

On the scope front. Westjet regional. Fuel prices. (Makes smaller jets less viable)

Suggestion.

Redistribute the allocated cash within TA1. Reword CARS at the LCC. Package the concepts of TA1 without the simplification language. Expect the corporation to seek further scope changes in exchange.

I would do this with the knowledge that CCAA may be an option AC is viewing. Pension has not been dealt with. The moratorium ends at the end of 2013 just as capital expenditures increase for the 787. AC doesn't have the cash to handle it nor is there any obvious solution on the horizon. The 787 is required for ACs future. That isn't to say there isn't a solution. It is saying we are missing part of the picture. Either it is CCAA, a buyer (with ACs pension liability and employees relations?) Some sort of capital infusion I can't think of? Borrowing? Rates will be very prohibitive just making matters worse.

But since we don't know the plan? Or if it is really a plan this side of CCAA at all? Tread carefully. But don't buy into the fear of whole sale slaughter of AC employees some are pushing. Yes reducing the current AC employee foot print maybe part of the future. It can not however be done over night as it would just trigger successorship issues due to Canadian labor law. Even within CCAA. Making the move pointless.

Last edited by Fanblade on Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

TA1 is over 12 months old. Don't be so certain that TA1 meets all of the tests imposed by Bil C-33. Having said that, there are valuable concepts that were in that agreement that should be preserved.

As far as employee footprint is concerned, consider this. In 2006 the AC heavy maintenance was performed by thousands of AC payroll employees. In 2012, AC heavy maintenance is performed by zero AC payroll employees.

Finally, the AC balance sheet should be recapitalised. There is money out there. But not to invest in AC as it is currently structured and operated.

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Scythe

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:06 pm

Rank 0

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:58 am
Posts: 6

rudder wrote:

Rudder, i believe you are bang on. As for TA1 I think it was intentionally omitted from the pilot's section of bill c-33 because AC is looking at other lcc opportunities 'sans' their pilots. With current acpa leadership opposed to lcc, this makes it a cake walk for the company in FOS.

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:57 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Scythe wrote:

As for TA1 I think it was intentionally omitted from the pilot's section of bill c-33 because AC is looking at other lcc opportunities 'sans' their pilots. With current acpa leadership opposed to lcc, this makes it a cake walk for the company in FOS.

Here is one for you.

In one week, the commercial relationship between Jazz and Thomas Cook will be ended. Therefore, no further perceived or real conflict of commercial interest between Jazz and AC. AC has proposed that up to 20% of ACV lift be provided on non-AC flights. Given that Jazz has 2 years of operational experience flying large aircraft internationally, is it possible that Jazz could be contracted to run a TC style operation on behalf of ACV? Pilot/FA/AME conversion to 767 could be done almost overnight. Airbus would take a little longer but could certainly be up and running by September 2012. The Jazz manager of flight training is a former 767/330 pilot. Could this type of initiative be further stimulated by broader CPA concessions from Jazz? Jazz could easily afford to add aircraft debt on its balance sheet and take it off of the AC balance sheet. There would be the potential for AC to save tens of millions of dollars per annum. Wonder how the arbitrator would view that?

Whether it is Jazz, Skyregional (Skyservice II?), or some other as yet unnamed entity - ACPA's conduct in the last ditch 10 day bargaining round will determine whether what would otherwise have been considered far fetched outcomes could become reality in FOS.

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Scythe

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:34 pm

Rank 0

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:58 am
Posts: 6

Rudder, if there is an ACV proposal, as mentioned and it forms part of FOS, and the arbitrator rules in favour of AC, it is certainly possible jazz could do this flying. But both ACPA and AC will have to be realisitc in their final offers, so the 'question' that needs to be asked is, is this a 'nice-to-have' or a 'must-have' for AC? Wasn't this the plan for lcc?

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:51 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

Scythe wrote:

Here is the irony. If AC were to sell ACV (either this side or the other side of CCAA), this discussion would be moot. ACV could then buy seats from whomever it wanted to. It is only because ACV is currently an AC subsidiary that there are any restrictions.

AC runs sked flights on specific city pairs to the sun simply because ACV buys seats on those flights. AC is obliged to sell the rest itself. This is the same model as WJ except they have WJV and TC buying the seats which opens up more route opportunities and increases financial viability for both the tour company and the airline operator.

ACV is another example of AC trying to be all things to all people in a segment of the market that does not currently provide positive yields due to excess capacity. TC blinked because they could no longer afford to be there on the terms that they had agreed to with Jazz (dedicated lift). I wonder when or if AC will come to the same conclusion. Something has to change.

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Fanblade

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:59 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:50 am
Posts: 268

The odd thing about C33 was not the omission to direct the arbitrator to consider ACPAs previous TA. It was that it was even mentioned at all wrt the IAM. It is a given. Canadian jurisprudence is very clear on the issue and does not need to be stated. Normally it never would. It is extreamly rare for arbitrators not to impose a previous TA if one exists. The test not to do so is a very high standard. The omission, well actually the addition on the IAM side is likely more a ministerial push. Or concern in the 90 day window ACPA would go ape with it in. Either way its inclusion is meaningless to the the outcome.
(
The wrinkle here is FOS. The corporation knows if ACPA walks in and drops TA1 on the table they win. A little ironic don't you think? I believe both sides would rather see an adjusted TA1.01 rather than the original TA1.

That is why they are both willing to talk going in. Sans the rhetoric it is now in both parties interest.

So like I asked earlier. Is that enough? What's been fixed? How does AC meet its pension obligation at the end of 2013? Pension obligation it has clearly stated it has absolutely no intention meeting. How does it finance the 787?

If it can't meet the capital expenditures in 20 months? Better CCAA now? Or wait for 2014 and enter the distressed pension workout scheme? How would waiting 20 months impact 787 financing?

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Fanblade

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:50 am
Posts: 268

Rudder,

Using a vendors cash leaves you at the mercy of a single vendor. There will always be sytings attached. Strings serving the interest of the one who provided cash rather than interest in the corporation needing restructuring.
Diversification is required for all the companies born out of ACE.

Jazz will one day hold AC for ransom if left unchanged.

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Localizer

Post subject: Re: Back to the table, and positive energy

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:17 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:18 am
Posts: 1099
Location: CYYZ

Jazz hold AC for ransom? .. Its seems the current CPA holds Jazz to the wall .. no real option for diversification. Obviously AC expects its "vendors" to diversify, as was said in the media release regarding Aveo's, but when Jazz initiated the TC operation it was met with the opposite reaction. All that said .. If AC expects Jazz to take the risk by funding aquistions to their fleet .. shouldn't there be something in it for Jazz? (and I mean more then status quo)

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