New Contract thread

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Mig29
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Mig29 »

loopa wrote:I haven't followed the AC debate on the new contract because there were too many factors that I lost track.

But looking at the above posted pay scale, at 80 hours/month a First Year F/O brings in just over 48k before per diems? Isn't this more than what the old contract was ? I thought the old contract you started at 38.5k before per diems?

What's this complaint that I keep hearing about aviation turning for the worst? Looks like a raise... I'm not a troll, just curious as for what the complaining is about. Even the LCC you're making around 44k at 80 hours a month as a first year F/O on a narrow body.

Is it the pension plan that's bothering people? Is it that certain groups have to go to LCC? I can see those things, but I kept hearing over and over again how terrible the wages were going to be at AC and that doesn't look too far away from industry standard to me. Jazz doesn't even pay 44k before per diems.

Thanks in advance to the ones who aren't going to rip me a new one explaining the issue that AC pilot's are so riled up about...

Cheers 8)
Depends from what and who's perspective you look at these pay scales. Keep in mind that there are non-pay related issues that are not mentioned by the above poster. Those will affect everyone down the road, whether you are at AC, WJ, Transat or Jazz.

It may not be "that bad" as you guys say, but it's a step in BACKWARD direction and that is not positive at all.

Just my honest opinion...
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pilotbzh
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by pilotbzh »

For a fair comparaison her is the 2008 rates
July22008.pdf
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126.75
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by 126.75 »

I understand there have been some concessions but what are they? The new pension sounds WAY better to a new hire than the old one. After 5 years the company will match your contributions to 175%!!!! Lets say you're 30 you have 30 years to compound that retirement fund, and that's ignoring the people getting hired in their mid to late 20s. Sure there are some people over 30 getting hired but chances are they have already begun saving towards retirement.

Please tell me the reasons why this new contract is such a blow to the industry? I hear everyone saying how bad it is - but I'd like to know why it's so bad? I am thinking of throwing my application in with confidence with the new contract from what I see...
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loopa
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by loopa »

Like above I'm confused too.

WestJet first year works out to be 50k... AC is 48K. I'd say that's pretty damn close.

At the end of the day we should all be fighting for better rights as a Pilot. It doesn't make sense that a KLM 200 hour second officer makes 64k Euros/yr start salary and a 5000 hour 705 captain going to AC making 48k... but given the industry we are in and given the competition we are up against, I'd say AC's new pay scale looks better and more attractive than before.

I'm sure we will get some opinionated (and perhaps rightfully so) individuals telling the tale on why the new contract is so bad. I still have to remember that I'm seeing the outside picture, and could be affected by the grass is greener theory.
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CanadianEh
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by CanadianEh »

126.75 wrote:I understand there have been some concessions but what are they? The new pension sounds WAY better to a new hire than the old one. After 5 years the company will match your contributions to 175%!!!! Lets say you're 30 you have 30 years to compound that retirement fund, and that's ignoring the people getting hired in their mid to late 20s. Sure there are some people over 30 getting hired but chances are they have already begun saving towards retirement.

Please tell me the reasons why this new contract is such a blow to the industry? I hear everyone saying how bad it is - but I'd like to know why it's so bad? I am thinking of throwing my application in with confidence with the new contract from what I see...
It doesn't matter what the pay is if AC now has the ability to outsource the flying. How many aircraft they decide to outsource/to whom/at what price are still to be determined. Your reaction is typical of what management was hoping for "Hey, we are earning more per hour, that's great!" WRONG. You have to look at the total compensation, which has taken a few steps back. There are also changes to allowances for training, claiming meals, per diems etc. which all add up but are often not factored in.
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126.75
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by 126.75 »

For what it's worth I heard that the ratio of other Tier flying to AC flying is 29:100 which is very similar to what it is right now. How can they outsource much more without expanding mainline?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

126.75 wrote:For what it's worth I heard that the ratio of other Tier flying to AC flying is 29:100 which is very similar to what it is right now. How can they outsource much more without expanding mainline?
The same way the did with Sky Regional.......they just did it and ACPA rolled over..... :roll:
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Kestral
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Kestral »

Compared to most flying Jobs in Canada this is still pretty good IMHO. Especially if you're in your late 20's - mid 30's and don't mind living in Toronto or close by and able to commute without too much stress.

However, if you are older and more established with a family and have a home in an more personally appealing city/town of the county it may just not be for you to make a move to the bottom of the seniority list and wait the 5+ years for higher pay rate??

Again I am saying this in comparison to other jobs in Canada and Canada only. Seems to me that it's the entire industry that has to change not just AC.
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Legacy
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Legacy »

Ok I gotta admit. I have had a few beers. But did I just see a 319 captain starts off higher than a 767 captain?
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Fanblade
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Fanblade »

Legacy wrote:Ok I gotta admit. I have had a few beers. But did I just see a 319 captain starts off higher than a 767 captain?
Yup.


The 319 wages are a mirror of WJ

The 767 wages are a mirror of AT
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ACEshareholder
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by ACEshareholder »

Reading thru the agreement as per page 1....it seems to me that there is a little bit of political 'double talk' is going on here...ie:

Section added to “mitigate the effects for the Air Canada Pilots who may be adversely affected by changes being considered which could reduce the number of Embraer aircraft.”

• Junior pilots equal to number of EMJ pilots on July 31, 2012 protected from furlough (estimate 643 jobs)

• Protection “will not apply in the case of a reduction in the Embraer fleet due to adverse economic circumstances which also requires a reduction of flying hours or a reduction of other aircraft types operated by Air Canada.”

Would not the last bullet point negate the initial discussion on the mitigation of layoffs? In other words, does anyone else read this the same as me, whereas we ARE in adverse economic circumstances hence the arbitrated settlement...or are they referring to a condition of future CCAA?

The EMB175 may go to tier 2, but what about the remaining 190s?. They could not filter down due to the 76 seat capacity...so.....is CR going to park them in the next 5 mos....are the leases up on these frames???

Finally.....does anyone know if the LCC pay schedule begins @ year one for a 6 year ACPA pilot....in other words does this shiny new LCC machine have everyone enter at the year one pay scale when they step off the mother ship.

lots of questions....but hoping AC pilots pull through this as it is not good for anyone in the industry...
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rudder
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by rudder »

DAL pay rates are available for comparison. UAL/CAL just reached a TA and the rumour is DAL pay -$1/hr. AA will get a deal under CH11 but pay rates are not being targeted for reduction. Those are more reasonable benchmarks for a legacy North American airline. And as for LCC? Well, the rates aren't what many would like but at least AC pilots will be flying the planes. The same cannot be said for many other positions at LCC. CUPE is in for a rude awakening.
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whiteguy
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by whiteguy »

ACEshareholder wrote:
The EMB175 may go to tier 2, but what about the remaining 190s?. They could not filter down due to the 76 seat capacity...so.....is CR going to park them in the next 5 mos....are the leases up on these frames???
The EMB fleet is not leased, they are all owned by AC!
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Fanblade
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Fanblade »

ACEshareholder,

Yes the EMJ job protection is just meaningless window dressing.

The 29:100 domestic ASM ratio however is not. Although it does not provide a hard number of guaranteed fins it provides a ball park guarantee. A range where fin numbers fluctuate somewhat depending on gauge and density.

The 190 won't be leaving the fleet until replaced. 5-7 years ish. It likely will not be replace one for one as the Corp is heading toward NB fleet renewal based on a single slightly larger gauged fleet.

To introduce all 60 705's at the regional fleet mainline domestic ASM's would need to grow 15%.

Expect a few less fins but larger NB aircraft. The widebody fleet is increasing ( inclusive of LCC)

AC still hiring.

What happens at the CPA carriers is unclear. The corporation doesn't have a lot of space to add ASM in a new contract without decreasing elsewhere or increasing AC domestic ASM's.

They have said mainline domestic ASM's are not going up.
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chatman
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by chatman »

pilotbzh wrote:And For LCC
Air Canada flight attendant

5.04 PURSER DC9, B727, A320, A319
B747, B747CFY
EFFECTIVE
JUNE 1, 2003
I (1st year)
II (2nd year)
III (3rd year)
51.72
55.82
58.82

Pretty sad that the Fas will make more for the first few years
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Floyd
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Floyd »

I think the new contract gives people the illusion that it is not that bad of a contract because the first two year pay has gone up but there is a potentially large reduction in pay in year 3 and 4 (presuming you can hold 320 f/o by then which is very likely right now). For those not on the property yet it might not seem like a big deal but for those in year 1, 2, 3 or 4 currently working at Air Canada if they bid out of their current position they become stuck on 4 year flat pay also, which isn't what they signed up for.

The new pension seems favourable (still not as good as DB provided it still exists when most people retire) because they had to make it palatable so that the arbitrator would choose their offer but they can reduce the contributions at a later time. Its kind of like the foot in the door theory. They just wanted to remove themselves from the DB pension this time around because they know next time they can squeeze a bit more money out of the RPP.

The LCC is going to pay 320 captains more than 767 and if you've never been captain at AC you go to year 1 pay (less than EMJ Capt. and widebody F/O).

The worst part is that a lot of people are worried that they won't have a job in the next 3 - 5 years because a lot of scope protection is lost. For those not at AC yet there is no job security (little for those at the bottom due to the economic hard time clause). I guess it's a good thing we get a pay raise, at least maybe we can maximize our EI payments!
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Fanblade
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by Fanblade »

Floyd wrote:
The worst part is that a lot of people are worried that they won't have a job in the next 3 - 5 years because a lot of scope protection is lost. For those not at AC yet there is no job security (little for those at the bottom due to the economic hard time clause). I guess it's a good thing we get a pay raise, at least maybe we can maximize our EI payments!
Floyd,

That is simply not true. Mainline/LCC is guaranteed 77.5% of non international ASM's.

I wish ACPA would come out and say this. Instead they have focused on specific fleet numbers guaranteed being removed and as a result are leaving the impression jobs are at risk.

They are not.
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scopiton
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by scopiton »

why are they not at risk if they don't guarantee jobs for those hired after aug 1st ?
just curious.
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TKTguy
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by TKTguy »

Just curious about the ASM ratio. Does this apply only to CPA or all regional flying?
Given the wording about AC having the ability to code share on Tier II flying.
This is a non issue with the CPA. However if the Tier II return to flying again as
we did pre-CPA is there a limit on this flying and aircraft seat limits?
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rudder
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Re: New Contract thread

Post by rudder »

TKTguy wrote:Just curious about the ASM ratio. Does this apply only to CPA or all regional flying?
Given the wording about AC having the ability to code share on Tier II flying.
This is a non issue with the CPA. However if the Tier II return to flying again as
we did pre-CPA is there a limit on this flying and aircraft seat limits?
The aircraft gauge and ASM capacity ratio limitations include all CPA and codeshare regional flying.
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