Air Canada Pool

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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

Flywest wrote:
Their pay will be subsidized by Jazz for first 4 years with the intent that after 4 years they should be making similar/close to previous salary.[/quote]


Incorrect,

Their pay will be subsidized by Air Canada for the first four years.

Funds are coming from AC for this purpose, and are a part of new CPA. Confirmed at the first roadshow.

This should be very popular within ACPA.....[/quote]

This will be an issue with ACPA for sure and will cause problems for this PMA not to far down the road. There's no insurance for anyone on the PML that they will be hired at AC after ACPA puts their seal of disapproval on it. Or am I wrong?
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AllClutch
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by AllClutch »

That money comes from Jazz or were you not paying attention at the roadshow?
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AllClutch
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by AllClutch »

arcadia wrote:
Flywest wrote:
Their pay will be subsidized by Jazz for first 4 years with the intent that after 4 years they should be making similar/close to previous salary.

Incorrect,

Their pay will be subsidized by Air Canada for the first four years.

Funds are coming from AC for this purpose, and are a part of new CPA. Confirmed at the first roadshow.

This should be very popular within ACPA.....[/quote]


Yeah really, lets add a few more dividers amongst the pilot group.

So lets say they need 55 guys by April 2015. Will the flow through agreement be in effect then? How soon we talking here?
It would be nice if they sucked it up and took care of the pool first, many if not all have had their current employers called and and told that they were successful in the interview and would be leaving to go with Big Red soon. Which from that point on has had that poolie in the penalty box at his current place of employment. which for most has been 1-2 years.[/quote]


If it's ratified the first up to 40 Jazz pilots will go over in February it was said.
They really don't owe the pool anything you do realize? Legally speaking? Further more the executive suite wants to make a deal that will lower their lift costs as soon as possible and in this possible scenerio it doesn't happen by taking guys OTS.

But relax, we are a long way from ratification and only a short time to get there.
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arcadia
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by arcadia »

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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Flywest
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Flywest »

Yes I was paying attention....close attention.

The devil is in the details and you may have missed it. While technically the top up cheques will flow from a Jazz account, the money to fund that account is being transferred from AC to Jazz as part of the new CPA.

Watch the webinar, this came right from the horses mouth when he was asked a direct question to clarify where the money comes from.

Imagine how much love there will be between a recent New Hire, and the first senior Jazz Capt. to flow through. Both now in their first year at AC, doing the same job, both being paid ENTIRELY by the same company. One makes 50K the other 120k.
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crj_705
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by crj_705 »

Flywest wrote:Yes I was paying attention....close attention.

The devil is in the details and you may have missed it. While technically the top up cheques will flow from a Jazz account, the money to fund that account is being transferred from AC to Jazz as part of the new CPA.

Watch the webinar, this came right from the horses mouth when he was asked a direct question to clarify where the money comes from.

Imagine how much love there will be between a recent New Hire, and the first senior Jazz Capt. to flow through. Both now in their first year at AC, doing the same job, both being paid ENTIRELY by the same company. One makes 50K the other 120k.

Hey FlyWest...member$hip ha$ it'$ priveledge$
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dukepoint
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dukepoint »

It's funny how pilots make others private business dealings their business. There's little fair in Aviation. No one currently on the property at AC will be adversely affected by this deal. No one. This is a simple business arrangement between AC and Jazz designed to drive costs down in the long term so they can compete on a more even playing field with our competitors that have chosen to compensate Tier II poorly. It's sad....but it's business.

If new hires have a problem with others in the same class being compensated differently, they can stay off the property cuz that's how things work around here and we don't need the attitude. They will be fully versed upon being offered a job, and they can take it or leave it as they choose. We're not about to change the "new hire" wage just to align "fairness" with the Jazz deal. This is a seniority driven career, and no new hire with a seniority number will be disadvantaged by anyone comming from Jazz in any form, regardless of what they're paid. Period.

The AC pilot group "embraced" a 10 year deal that sees a Rouge Captain earning less than $190K, while a pilot at Mainline doing the exact same job earns over $230k. Dissimilar pay for similar work is the new "normal".....simple. It's the Company's job to control costs....it's the Unions job to police "fair", and they've already made their view known on this matter by pushing the new TA on us with a "unanimous recommend". We'd all better get used to it.

At the end of the day, it's just business and you can take it or leave it as you choose.

DP.

Edited for clarity and speling.... :)
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Last edited by dukepoint on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

indieadventurer
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by indieadventurer »

They're hiring for a position to handle all of the details https://app.work4labs.com/w4d/134146296 ... b/47918945
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arcadia
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by arcadia »

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Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dukepoint
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dukepoint »

arcadia wrote:DP,

From what I understand, a Jazz guy will be able to receive a seniority # but hold off on making the move from Jazz to AC for up to two years, How is that "no new hire with a seniority # will be affected?"

The new guy who comes right away ends up working the worst schedule the first two years, only to have the Jazz guy come over after two years and go ahead? That to me is a new hire being affected.

Also, this private business dealings is every pilot in Canada's business, Jazz guys are trying to lock up the next 500 jobs at one of the highest paying companies in the country, and a lot of Canadian pilots goal is to become a AC pilot. So yeah , this "private business dealing" is everyone business.
A new hire will be told what their seniorty number is prior to being hired.....take it or not, as it matters little to anyone.

However, (for what my opinion is worth)......let me put it this way......don't count on it.

There are serious rumblings at ACPA already about the "seniority reservation" system. It will likely be subject to grievance....a grievance that most ACPA members will likely support. If your not on the property, beware....especially if ACPA doesn't specifically approve a LOU recognizing the reserved number program.

I'm not saying anything.......but if I were a Jazz guy or gal......get on the property with a number. Don't hold out in hope a number will be waiting. We have a tendancy to want to protect those already on the property.

DP.

FWIW, if the "seniority reservation program" is ACPA approved, everything will settle out for an "off the street" new hire within 2 years of arriving on the property. They will be told by the interviewers how this will affect them. They can then accept, or turn down the employment offer. This will mean a possibly poor schedule for the first while, but that's normal anyway. After two years the "parachuting" ends, then life will be better. Given the numbers AC is talking about hiring over the next 10 years....this will matter little, and soon be forgotten.
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Last edited by dukepoint on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

DH772
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by DH772 »

DP,
Pilot making making near 200 working 8-10 a month. Throw in 1-2 days OT he makes mainline rate working 12 days a month.

Pilot making 230 working 16 days a month mostly 4 days

There's a reason why the last new class is all heading to mainline instead of rouge.

Not the same comparison here.



Also, Good point on the seniority reservation. ACPA will try to say something about that as it effects current pilots on property.
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dukepoint
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dukepoint »

DH772 wrote:DP,
Pilot making making near 200 working 8-10 a month. Throw in 1-2 days OT he makes mainline rate working 12 days a month.

Pilot making 230 working 16 days a month mostly 4 days

There's a reason why the last new class is all heading to mainline instead of rouge.

Not the same comparison here.



Also, Good point on the seniority reservation. ACPA will try to say something about that as it effects current pilots on property.
I agree, as Rouge to Mainline is not an "apples to apples" comparison. There are many opportunities to make extra cash at Rouge. Rouge benifits the junior/mid-packer, while Mainline favors the senior. It seems to be working OK.

I believe most ACPA pilots will not support the "reservation" system. As it would require a LOU to be officially addapted, it likely won't pass a Membership vote.....but who says Wall will allow a vote?

DP.
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7931
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by 7931 »

I am a newbie here, not a pilot but the spouse of a Jazz pilot who asked me to find out more info about the proposed agreement while she is away flying for 5 days. However, I did work for AC in-flight for 7 years so I have seen some of the changes over the years.

Without wanting to make any judgments or accusations, I would like to ask if you members can suggest why this flow agreement would be good for Senior Jazz pilots (like my spouse). It is good for the company, as has been suggested, since it takes expensive senior pilots off of the Jazz payroll and puts them BOTL at the mainline, filling the vacancies for needed staff. It is good for ACPA members, since as I understand even very senior pilots flowing over from Jazz will never bump them.

However, in the airline industry, like any unionized job, it is a huge understatement to say that your seniority number is really important. Paying 4 years salary is a lot of money. But unless you are pretty close to retirement you are looking at 5, 10 or 15 years of little or no choice in your flying. Who would choose that? Just for bigger metal, as has been mentioned?

What possible negative consequence is there to staying put?

Thanks in advance for your input
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dukepoint
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by dukepoint »

Everyone is pretty short on details....plus the agreement has to pass first. I'd suggest you wait for the facts before giving your spouse any advice. Everyone has to weigh the pros and cons for themselves as they apply to their specific case, then make the move or not.

For some it won't make any sense at all.......others, it's a no-brainer.

I will say the early bird is going to get the worm, if you have a taste for worms........ and leave it at that. Good luck to you both.

DP.

PS. Remember the AC Rouge schedule bidding is socialized, so your flying in year one is going to be pretty good....with a good chance of Christmas off almost immediately.
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mbav8r
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by mbav8r »

7931, all your husband needs is access to ALPA website, our MEC page has a link to the road show video and the road show presentation to download as well as the MOS. The link for the YUL road show should be there soon as well and answered more question than the YYZ road show.
There are some reasons for senior pilots to sign up for this but there are some risks and really better if he watches and reads himself because of the complexity of trying to explain it.
Key point, if he has his 25 year passes, those are intact but if not, as it stands right now he would not carry over years of service for those, essentially starting over for passes and as a new hire at AC he would be giving up everything except for 4 years of pay protection.
They've added a flow chart to answer all questions related to this PMA, covering the scenarios that have come up since the announcement.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by cdnpilot77 »

MbAv8r.....BIG social faux pas!!
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Slappy the Squirrel
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Slappy the Squirrel »

I have a feeling that the flow through agreement will pass, I'm sure there will be some opposition to it, but I'd be surprised if a majority at Jazz are opposed.

What remains to be seen is how this is going to affect the current pool. Of course I am biased, but I hope they don't forget about those of us who have been waiting patiently for up to 2 years now. We certainly aren't entitled to anything, but it would be nice to put this "saga" to a rest.

Things could be worse, Air Canada is looking at running ground schools in the next few months and there is a rumour (though not reliable) that they might clear out the pool before the flow through starts, so who knows, I'm still optimistic!
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Calin Robandfistyou
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Calin Robandfistyou »

My understanding is that the PMA is part of the CPA and thus if the TA gets passed, the 80/20% comes into effect immediately leaving no time to clear up the pool. I feel the pool will get drained using the remaining 20%. I can understand the frustration tho, but there will be jazz captains that have put in 20 years plus in the air canada system going over, so 2 years in the pool isn't so bad.
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snag
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by snag »

Oh please, and those captains also get a quarter million dollar wage top up. They also would have passed on other opportunities to flow through to AC over those twenty years, which clearly weren't rich enough. No tears of pity there.
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by aV1aTOr »

snag wrote:Oh please, and those captains also get a quarter million dollar wage top up. They also would have passed on other opportunities to flow through to AC over those twenty years, which clearly weren't rich enough. No tears of pity there.
Keep in mind, besides some top up money for their first 4 years at AC, those 20 year Jazz pilots choosing to come over to AC are coming as a NEW HIRE. BOTL seniority. Don't kid yourself, they are not getting a sweetheart deal here. Even with the short term extra cash, they will have to think long and hard about making that move.
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forcedwhore
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by forcedwhore »

Can you imagine the tension in the cockpit when the skipper is making less then the Jazz New hire....as if there isn't enough dividers at AC as it is. Jazz new hires are going to be outcast, and rightfully so.
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Mr. North
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Mr. North »

I don't quite understand this.. Does the 80% flow through from Jazz mean they're taking the most senior pilots or just anyone wearing the Jazz uniform? Would a recent new hire (2-4 years) have the same odds of getting on AC as a 20 year captain?

Could someone refresh me on the pay at Jazz. I always understood it as being pretty good, the main detractor being the length of time it took to upgrade. Wouldn't a flow through policy make Jazz a more attractive place to work now?

With regards to AC, how many retirements per year are we looking at once we get past the age 60 delay? Are they doing this to perhaps stem the inevitable tide of retirements about to happen? If so, the remaining 20% could still be quite a lot of positions, perhaps more than we've seen in the last few years? Thoughts?

Oh and lets try not to froth at the mouth about all this.
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comanchepilot
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by comanchepilot »

cdnpilot77 wrote:MbAv8r.....BIG social faux pas!!
mbav8r wrote:7931, all your partner needs is access to ALPA website, our MEC page has a link to the road show video and the road show presentation to download as well as the MOS. The link for the YUL road show should be there soon as well and answered more question than the YYZ road show.
There are some reasons for senior pilots to sign up for this but there are some risks and really better if she watches and reads herself because of the complexity of trying to explain it.
Key point, if she has her 25 year passes, those are intact but if not, as it stands right now she would not carry over years of service for those, essentially starting over for passes and as a new hire at AC he would be giving up everything except for 4 years of pay protection.
They've added a flow chart to answer all questions related to this PMA, covering the scenarios that have come up since the announcement.
FTFY...
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by aV1aTOr »

forcedwhore wrote:Can you imagine the tension in the cockpit when the skipper is making less then the Jazz New hire....as if there isn't enough dividers at AC as it is. Jazz new hires are going to be outcast, and rightfully so.
I can assure you there is no skipper at Air Canada making less than $160k. Clearly you do not work for Air Canada. If you did, I sincerely hope you would not deem it acceptable to "outcast" any fellow ACPA pilot because they got what is essentially some severance cash from their previous employer.
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mbav8r
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Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by mbav8r »

Oopsie, my apologies, I missed that completely.
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