Air Canada Pool

[airboy1]

This is not right. Just because the scab section doesnt have their affairs in order shouldn't mean they should be given the opportunity to circumvent the existing PML

Agree, Skyregional and other scab pilots should be banned from Air Canada, they lowered the bar.

[BingBong]

Haha ur funny.

[Ironman2909]

They were doing it to solicite emails from Skyregional and Georgian pilots who will be hired to fill the 20% OTS quota untill their PML is officially kicked off at the end of the Jazz PML in approx 2018.
It went out in an email to those pilot groups 2 months ago.

Unfortunately, it is partially true...... the 20% on some courses may be loaded by guys coming from GGN and SkyR which means they get ahead of the actual pool.

[altiplano]

How can you be circumventing anything? Unless you are junior at Jazz and getting hired out of seniority on the PML...

Don't get me wrong, I advocated for the poolies when the PML business started, but in the end no one owns that spot until your hand is in the hat pulling out your seniority number. Suggest you correct your attitude about it lest someone who matters gets a wiff and flushes the pool.

[Ironman2909]

How can you be circumventing anything? Unless you are junior at Jazz and getting hired out of seniority on the PML...

Don't get me wrong, I advocated for the poolies when the PML business started, but in the end no one owns that spot until your hand is in the hat pulling out your seniority number. Suggest you correct your attitude about it lest someone who matters gets a wiff and flushes the pool.

Sorry, was just passing the info and answering the question that was earlier posted. Don't meant no harm to anybody...

[Anticyclone]

Thanx bingbong I appreciate it.

The pool should not be bypassed especially if the poolie isn't currently employed, the union should have a word with the management

[snag]

In hiring news:
3 x 20 before the end of 2015. Total 170-190 new hires by summer 2016.

One would think that should flush the pool.

[comanchepilot]

Should a junior Jazz pilot hired after the PML was created not be able to jump the queue if AC opens the OTS application process again? As I understand it they aren't being protected by the list, and with the new contract they were basically screwed for pay so everyone on the property had their chance at mainline. I suspect that when the F-PML is created (if ever) they also won't get the pay top-up (I think it is called FIP), of course, there probably isn't anything to top-up to anyways as I don't think year 4 JZA FO pay is as much as year 1 AC FO pay.

So why shouldn't they be able to apply outside of the process and circumvent it if no single part of it protects them or guarantees them anything? If anything, it would get them out of the poverty-pay a bit faster!

[airboy1]

So why shouldn't they be able to apply outside of the process and circumvent it if no single part of it protects them or guarantees them anything? If anything, it would get them out of the poverty-pay a bit faster!

Unfortunately it will probably be one of the only way to attract new pilots to the regionals. The dangling carrot...

[airboy1]

So why shouldn't they be able to apply outside of the process and circumvent it if no single part of it protects them or guarantees them anything? If anything, it would get them out of the poverty-pay a bit faster!

Unfortunately it will probably be one of the only way to attract new pilots to the regionals. The dangling carrot...

[Dockjock]

That's obviously the main reason that flow agreements are stupid, in my opinion. While in place, they depress wages because pilots are attracted by the prospect of a so-called guaranteed interview. Remove them, or limit them, and there is no attraction to work for there, other than being employed is obviously better than being unemployed. In Canada where the industry is so small, your odds are really not that much improved by trying to set yourself up with a guarantee. Unless there is only one way in, which is the frustrating case in some carriers today, you're better off just going where the movement to upgrade is fastest because captain time is worth the most above all else.

[mbav8r]

Dockjock, pilots were lining up for jobs and Sky Regional, Encore and Georgian before any such list existed.

[loopa]

captain time is worth the most above all else.

On what, and for what line of work is it worth above all else? Have all the 1900 pic in the world and you'll still qualify for the same type of "high end" (and i use that term loosely) airline gig that your 1500 hour instructor is being offered today. And if you want to look outside of Canada for some reputable airline, it won't mean anything at all. If you want to find yourself flying a 1900 for a good outfit for the rest of your career, your method is ONE of the many ways to get there; certainly not above all else though. Many also chased the mpic ordeal and found themselves getting laid off from top jobs here in AB and are now simply "too qualified" to get the job an employer can pay a 1500 hour pilot for. Plus, he'd be able to retain the 1500 hour driver and keep him/her happy for way longer they would keep you around (probably for good reasons).

PIC time is completely over rated and is only ONE of many ways you can achieve the same goals of flying what ever, for whomever, going where ever in our industry. It's a young pilots industry these days, and unless you have PIC time on something heavier than 50 tonnes like a 737 or 320, I find your statement to be incorrect.

Who is more qualified for AC Rouge 767 F/O spot for example?

- 4000 hour 2000 mpic on 1900
- 4000 hour 2000 sic on 737

I'd say the F/O. The 1900 captain would be great at regurgitating SOP's the whole flight, but when shit hits the fan and you just hit your ETOPS ring and caught fire, the 737 f/o would be way more supportive and thought provoking over international airspace than your 1900 skipper who is used to inter provincial flying at best - even if that.

I just painted the same brush over all the 1900 drivers that you did with the statement about pic time. Completely bs right? Proving my point. It's not about the seat, it depends on the person - namely their attitude.

So what is above all else? Not PIC time, but Attitude. Because with a good attitude and good training, you create competent and effective leaders in any workplace environment. It's usually the pic driven mentality-types that think they are king shit when they get captain time and are found stunned when their loads of 1900 pic time gets PFO'd; obviously they and their friends will resort to the belief that making it to the airlines is about luck, cause I mean seriously, who would PFO a 1900 captain? Captain time is above all else. Your comment about pic time is in line with Nickynick's approach to why he won't get hired. Where is that guy btw? lol

Stay educated kids!

[atphat]

PIC time is completely over rated

Ooookkkkkk. I'm assuming your PIC total is what you had from your commercial licence. It's hardly impossible to be captain but anyone who has wouldn't say that. Back to the pool talk

[AirMail]

WestJet requires 1500 PIC IIRC, Encore 500, AC matrix favours one with PIC time than not. Even still, there's no guarantee of landing a job at a mainline, many don't want mainline jobs, so many other operators require a good amount of PIC. To say it's useless is an overstatement.

And if I were to choose from your example I'd take the 1900 Capt. Anyone can be put into a jet (easiest thing to fly), but having the ability to make and support/question your captain has good weight that an otherwise career FO may not.

To add to the above, there's always exceptions. I've seen captain material FOs and window licking captains but I'm referring to overall.

[acpoolie]

Still approx. 25-30 poolies....hang in there guys, our time is coming! Good things never come easy. Think positive, work hard and stay out of trouble. Won't be long and we can put this behind us and "live the dream".

[loopa]

To say it's useless is an overstatement.

Nothing is useless. I do however think it's overrated.

And if I were to choose from your example I'd take the 1900 Capt.

I think my point was probably missed. It's not the "jet flying" part that is the struggle. It's that the experience in the right seat of a passenger jet operation exposes you to a different type of flying, mindset, and decision making model as compared to your king air/1900 ops; making you a better fit for an "airline" operation. The 1900 captain would be relying on some no-doubt great hands on and decision making experience, just not in any sort relative experience that is required to be an effective crew member in the 705 model. And even if somewhat effective, the 1900 operator won't be more qualified than the 737 F/O for the job. No doubt the 705 world is an easier model when everything is flowing, but also way more complex than anything the 1900 operator is used to when shit hits the fan. So from an asset stand point, assuming both the 1900 capt and the 737 F/O are future captains (which most companies look for when hiring), taking the 705 F/O will turn out better for the airline operation. I'd trust a well seasoned airline F/O any day over a newly minted ex 1900 captain F/O if something went really hay wire. Really, it's only NA where 1900 pic and the sort counts for much. If you observe the practices elsewhere, they demand relative experience in order to get on with any major airline. Which in it self doesn't prevent idiots, but usually provides a wider range of competency than in the 1900 pic -> airline transition.

Which is why I said above everything comes attitude - the rest is trainable and viewable in the 10+ yrs you're spending in the right seat of an airliner at the AC stage. Hence why many ex 1900 captains still make great 705 Airbus/Embraer/Boeing Captains at AC; not necessarily so much due to their 1900 time, but because of the time they spent learning the job they were going to be in charge of coupled with good attitudes.

Anyone can be put into a jet (easiest thing to fly), but having the ability to make and support/question your captain has good weight that an otherwise career FO may not.

Even a career F/O (whether by choice or not) can be extremely great at the diplomatic job that is required of a first officer role. So that isn't necessarily a good supporting case as to why the 1900 captain would be better or worse. If anything, going from F/O to F/O would be easier than changing the captain mindset you've been in for the last thousands of hours. It's easy to forget where you came from; albeit not something you'd expect from a professional. But it still happens. Why do you think a current widebody captain interviewing for a F/O spot at AC will have a completely different interview than somebody with way less experience? To mainly identify attitude deficiencies that will develop in the right seat after being pic for 10k hours. Many of these wide body drivers also get the same PFO's that stuns the 1900 group. Granted you haven't lied, your experience usually speaks for itself; undoubtedly you will have experienced some epic moments in your career where you obviously made the right decision to still be in that seat interviewing. That's why post-interview invitation, it isn't about your flying exp any more. It's about your attitude and personality and whether it a) is good b) fits in c) is something the airline can benefit from.

Sorry for the sidetrack. Either way, the people in the pool have a variety of backgrounds, namely due to their great attitudes. 25-30 is a better number than 40! Wishing you guys all the luck to get in asap!

[AirMail]

It is a whole other debate Loopa, one that I'm sure would see most split on the opinions. Both side would have merits.

Anyways, I have heard rumour that the pool maybe opened to OTS early in the new year.

[loopa]

Awesome news for all. Agreed airmail.

[Fanblade]

Anyways, I have heard rumour that the pool maybe opened to OTS early in the new year.

We got an email saying AC plans to hire 170-190 by July. So I guess 34-38 OTS. Will that clear the OTS pool or close to it?