The race begins?

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog

countryhick
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:12 am
Location: Down in Butlertown

The race begins?

Post by countryhick »

---------- ADS -----------
 
ZBBYLW
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:28 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by ZBBYLW »

I wonder how long they will keep those EMJs around. It would make more sense to have one ~75 seat airplane in the CRJ705 which is much cheaper to operate. But I guess if you already have E75s...

Also as far as I am aware they are really close to the 29:100 ratio of ASM already. Loosing 15 airplanes starting in February 2013 I think it is going to be tough to replace those ASMs quickly. That is if they have any intent of keeping the ratio at 29:100 as per their latest "contract".

Interesting times. I wonder what the SkyRegional guys are going to get paid.

Questions Questions.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Beach 200
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:10 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by Beach 200 »

They are also buying 2 777-300, so there's your ASM figure!

Ya I'm curious what Sky is gonna pay. But since the seats on the E75 is only 3 more than the Q400. I bet it's the same wage!
---------- ADS -----------
 
ZBBYLW
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:28 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by ZBBYLW »

Those ASMs have to be local under the new contract they do not count any overseas ASMs. 2 77Ws flying exclusively between YVR and YYZ still would not replace those ASMs...
---------- ADS -----------
 
600RVR
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:06 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by 600RVR »

Beach 200 wrote:They are also buying 2 777-300, so there's your ASM figure!

Ya I'm curious what Sky is gonna pay. But since the seats on the E75 is only 3 more than the Q400. I bet it's the same wage!

Wide body A/C are not included in the seat ratio of scope. It's narrow body only. From what I understand we were already at the 100/30 ratio. Lets see what happens.

For those who say this is the start of the Race to the bottom. It started a long time ago. Canjet, Sun Wing, West Jet connector at 80% of industry standard, sky regional, and lets not forget the New Air Canada LCC. And because of pilots in general willing to whore themselves out to fly a bigger plane, I'm covinced now more than ever pilots would do it for food stamps and gas.

It's going to get very interesting. Also under the new contract any loss of EMJ all pilots are protected not to be layed off. Wait and see
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Disco Stu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:26 am
Location: Springfield, USA
Contact:

Re: The race begins?

Post by Disco Stu »

600RVR wrote:Wide body A/C are not included in the seat ratio of scope. It's narrow body only. From what I understand we were already at the 100/30 ratio. Lets see what happens.
Incorrect on both counts. Reference is 1.10.04 for the widebody thing. And they are significantly below the 29/100 ratio, somewhere around 23/100. Which means they can grow by 25% and still be within the 29/100.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by ratherbee »

International WB flying is excluded for the Tier 2 ASM ratio. That was a TA1 change from the expired contract.

However, one of the key protections lost during the last 18 months was the right to keep EMJ-175 flying at the mainline. Here is a quote from the TA1 Scope newsletter:

The ACPA pilots will continue to fly all aircraft in the Medium Jet Category or larger (greater than 55 seats), except limited numbers of the specific single type of the CRJ 705/900. Under no circumstances can a Tier 2 carrier fly an EMJ 175, or any other Medium Jet or larger aircraft.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

Disco Stu wrote:
600RVR wrote:Wide body A/C are not included in the seat ratio of scope. It's narrow body only. From what I understand we were already at the 100/30 ratio. Lets see what happens.
Incorrect on both counts. Reference is 1.10.04 for the widebody thing.
RVR is correct.
Disco Stu wrote: And they are significantly below the 29/100 ratio, somewhere around 23/100. Which means they can grow by 25% and still be within the 29/100.
Not according to the corporations own evidence produced at arbitration. They are capped out. In their own evidence they showed that for every 15 (705 type aircraft) added to tier 2, mainline domestic ASM's would need to increase 5%.

The possibilities are:

1) AC will increase domestic ASM's

2) AC will pull ASM'S from the Jazz CPA. They are above min block hours.

3) AC plans on violating the ACPA CBA.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Inverted2
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2455
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: The race begins?

Post by Inverted2 »

3) AC plans on violating the ACPA CBA.

Probably. CR knows he can get away with whatever he feels like and under the Harper regime there is pretty much nothing ACPA can do.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote:
The possibilities are:

1) AC will increase domestic ASM's

2) AC will pull ASM'S from the Jazz CPA. They are above min block hours.

3) AC plans on violating the ACPA CBA.
My prediction is that AC will draw down lift with Jazz by canceling underperforming transborder flying. AC wouldn't mind parking more of the 50 seat jets.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Disco Stu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:26 am
Location: Springfield, USA
Contact:

Re: The race begins?

Post by Disco Stu »

Fanblade

Domestic ASMs flown by widebody aircraft are included in the 29/100 ratio. Read the contract. It explicitly states that only INTERNATIONAL widebody flying is not included.

The numbers I have heard put AC around 23/100 ASMs currently.

However the ratio will take a big hit here twice. When the 175s depart, the ratio will increase. It will increase again when the 175s start flying at SR. Unless the mainline increases it's domestic ASMs either by expansion or upgauging, I don't know how they won't exceed the 29/100.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by rudder »

Disco Stu wrote:Fanblade

Domestic ASMs flown by widebody aircraft are included in the 29/100 ratio. Read the contract. It explicitly states that only INTERNATIONAL widebody flying is not included.

The numbers I have heard put AC around 23/100 ASMs currently.

However the ratio will take a big hit here twice. When the 175s depart, the ratio will increase. It will increase again when the 175s start flying at SR. Unless the mainline increases it's domestic ASMs either by expansion or upgauging, I don't know how they won't exceed the 29/100.
Aren't 85% of LCC ASM's included as well?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Disco Stu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:26 am
Location: Springfield, USA
Contact:

Re: The race begins?

Post by Disco Stu »

Yes.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5123
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by pelmet »

Geez, how will that affect those just hired. I know of a fellow who just went there. Will he be on reserve for years to come or will there be movement. Retirements are slowing too.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8229
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by Rockie »

Fanblade wrote:The possibilities are:

1) AC will increase domestic ASM's

2) AC will pull ASM'S from the Jazz CPA. They are above min block hours.

3) AC plans on violating the ACPA CBA.
Answer: 3

Air Canada knows they can ignore this so-called contract with impunity and there is nothing we can do about it. I submit they never had any intention of honouring it in the first place.

This is a new world we live in where with the government's backing corporations are demolishing pensions, contracts and any semblance of negotiated working conditions. Here is your bowl of gruel. Eat it and be damned glad we let you keep your job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CatInTheHat
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:26 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by CatInTheHat »

How will this all play out? Where will the pieces fall when the shuffle is done?

Are the Embraer pilots to be laid off? Follow the aircraft to Sky Regional? Get shifted to another aircraft? Are there conditions in the current agreement that speak to this?

And how does this affect future hiring / hiring in progress? I know hiring has been continuous for sometime, and I was under the impression that it was to continue due to attrition and possibly a current shortage.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by rudder »

CatInTheHat wrote:How will this all play out? Where will the pieces fall when the shuffle is done?

Are the Embraer pilots to be laid off? Follow the aircraft to Sky Regional? Get shifted to another aircraft? Are there conditions in the current agreement that speak to this?

And how does this affect future hiring / hiring in progress? I know hiring has been continuous for sometime, and I was under the impression that it was to continue due to attrition and possibly a current shortage.
Only affects approx 150 pilots. Just a drop in the bucket. They will be absorbed in the next equipment bid. Only effect might be slower hiring pace.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

Disco Stu wrote:Fanblade

Domestic ASMs flown by widebody aircraft are included in the 29/100 ratio. Read the contract. It explicitly states that only INTERNATIONAL widebody flying is not included.
I didn't see you differentiate between domestic and international WB ASM's on the post above. AC does very very little domestic ASM's with WB aircraft. To be clear. YVR-LHR for example are all international ASM's. The 2 triples announced will do little to nothing to increase mainline domestic ASM's.
Disco Stu wrote:
The numbers I have heard put AC around 23/100 ASMs currently.
Again. This is contrary to AC's own evidence before arbitration Stanley. But hey. As we all know selective reinterpretation is AC's motto.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:
Aren't 85% of LCC ASM's included as well?
Good point.

85% of domestic ASM'S. WB international ASM's not included.

So yes LCC starts next year as with the 319. If those ASM'S are growth rather than transfer? 85% will apply to mainline ASM's
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: The race begins?

Post by ratherbee »

Everyone knew the EMJ175's were a marginal aircraft for the mainline due to it's operational limitations. They likely would have gone no matter what happened. Under TA1 they couldn't have gone to Sky Regional but that is water under the bridge.

The new contract has furlough protection for those jobs.

We are still hiring.

About 1/3rd who are eligible are retiring. (50 or so?)

The 2 new B777's, and there are three more available, are growth aircraft.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”