The race begins?

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flyloose
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Re: The race begins?

Post by flyloose »

85% of all LCC asm's, whether domestic or international, narrow or widebody count towards the 100 asm at mainline
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

flyloose wrote:85% of all LCC asm's, whether domestic or international, narrow or widebody count towards the 100 asm at mainline
Nope. Re read it. Look up the definition of "domestic".
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

flyloose wrote:85% of all LCC asm's, whether domestic or international, narrow or widebody count towards the 100 asm at mainline
Nope. Re read it. Look up the definition of "domestic".
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rudder
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Re: The race begins?

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote:
flyloose wrote:85% of all LCC asm's, whether domestic or international, narrow or widebody count towards the 100 asm at mainline
Nope. Re read it. Look up the definition of "domestic".
It's in the LCC LOU No. 74

L74.01.08
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:
Fanblade wrote:
flyloose wrote:85% of all LCC asm's, whether domestic or international, narrow or widebody count towards the 100 asm at mainline
Nope. Re read it. Look up the definition of "domestic".
It's in the LCC LOU No. 74

L74.01.08
Okay I guess clearer. This by the way is NOT even an issue with the company.

I have the red line document in front of me. Without it I can see where confusion may exist.

Look at the top of LOU 74 to see which articles of the contract do not apply. Read the definition of domestic. Read article 1. A bit of a goats breakfast.

The line you are reading had a portion struck from it in FOS. The intent was to limit " domestic" to exclude Mexico. IOW more restrictive than article 1. Now LOU 74 is the same as article1.
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

Fanblade wrote:
Disco Stu wrote:
Disco Stu wrote: And they are significantly below the 29/100 ratio, somewhere around 23/100. Which means they can grow by 25% and still be within the 29/100.
Not according to the corporations own evidence produced at arbitration. They are capped out. In their own evidence they showed that for every 15 (705 type aircraft) added to tier 2, mainline domestic ASM's would need to increase 5%.

.
Disco Stu,

I rescind my comment. You are correct. The Corp is currently 23:100 on ASM's. After the transfer of the 175 still lots of room to up gauge the crj100/200 to Q's or 705's.
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Disco Stu
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Disco Stu »

Not that much room actually. As I said earlier, once the airplanes are removed from the fleet, that will bump up the ratio. Then once the airplanes start flying at SR, that will bump the numbers again.

ACPA is taking a very, very close look at the numbers right now.
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flyloose
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Re: The race begins?

Post by flyloose »

Starting in June there will be at least one possibly two 767's producing 275 seats at say 4000 miles every night when they fly to Europe.85% of those asm's will count toward the domestic mainline numbers..I'd say they will have lots if room.
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ratherbee
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Re: The race begins?

Post by ratherbee »

The original TA prevented that with "...on routes wholly within Canada."

FOS eliminated that important clause. Good job boys.
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

Disco Stu wrote:Not that much room actually. As I said earlier, once the airplanes are removed from the fleet, that will bump up the ratio. Then once the airplanes start flying at SR, that will bump the numbers again.

ACPA is taking a very, very close look at the numbers right now.
Yes they have that much room to REPLACE CRJ's with 705's and or Q400's. It is only a 25 ASM difference per fin.
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Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

flyloose wrote:Starting in June there will be at least one possibly two 767's producing 275 seats at say 4000 miles every night when they fly to Europe.85% of those asm's will count toward the domestic mainline numbers..I'd say they will have lots if room.
Wrong.

I explained this on the previous page. Domestic is defined as North America in Article 1. The original wording for the LCC narrowed that even further to exclude Mexico and the US. The narrowing of the definition was struck in FOS. Mexico and the US are now included in Domestic ASM's.

NO international ASM's are included LCC or otherwise.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Fanblade
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Fanblade »

ratherbee wrote:The original TA prevented that with "...on routes wholly within Canada."

FOS eliminated that important clause. Good job boys.
Again. Yes it did eliminate wholly within Canada. Now 85% of ASM's in North America (AKA the definition of Domestic) will count.

No international LCC ASM's count toward the domestic ASM ratio.

You have to read Article one in conjunction with the LCC LOU

As far as the good job boys comment? Careful.

Aren't you even interested why the 29:100 ratio leaves so much ASM room when NC1 insisted it left virtually no room unless Mainline domestic grew?

But that discussion isn't for a public forum.
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airboy1
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Re: The race begins?

Post by airboy1 »

The years of glory are pretty much over. This is only the beginning with AC. You can expect a lot more fleet removal from big red. Those naysayers looking at the "official" agreement can toss that out in the lav. That will change again in 5-6 years when AC still cant make money and will require to transition to full LCC mode AKA QANTAS/Jetstar.

Guess who will pay the fuel bills/ aircraft ownership costs for Skyregional? AC. Qantas has been doing this for the last few years, showing constant loss on their books and yet magical profits at Jetstar forcing more QANTAS aircraft to switchover. There are those at AC with complete ignorance constantly looking at their seniority thinking about themselves (who also allowed skyregional to start up) and how they should be ok since they are top third in the list. The shitty thing is that the juniors who will be the ones suffering again, being forced to move to LCC.

Seniority system is a detriment to any industry. Its locks in so many employees at an airline and you can bet management knows it.
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Mig29
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Mig29 »

airboy1 wrote:The years of glory are pretty much over. This is only the beginning with AC. You can expect a lot more fleet removal from big red. Those naysayers looking at the "official" agreement can toss that out in the lav. That will change again in 5-6 years when AC still cant make money and will require to transition to full LCC mode AKA QANTAS/Jetstar.

Guess who will pay the fuel bills/ aircraft ownership costs for Skyregional? AC. Qantas has been doing this for the last few years, showing constant loss on their books and yet magical profits at Jetstar forcing more QANTAS aircraft to switchover. There are those at AC with complete ignorance constantly looking at their seniority thinking about themselves (who also allowed skyregional to start up) and how they should be ok since they are top third in the list. The shitty thing is that the juniors who will be the ones suffering again, being forced to move to LCC.

Seniority system is a detriment to any industry. Its locks in so many employees at an airline and you can bet management knows it.
The "boy's" got a point I must say. But like everything in life, aviation is cyclical....and nothing keeps going down forever.
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Last edited by Mig29 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CanadianEh
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Re: The race begins?

Post by CanadianEh »

Mig29 wrote: The "boy's" got a point I must say. But like everything in life, aviation is cyclical....and nothing can keeps going down forever.
Tell that to RIM... :lol:
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What About Me?
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Re: The race begins?

Post by What About Me? »

Or Nortel :(
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Mig29
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Re: The race begins?

Post by Mig29 »

You got a point guys, to a certain extent. I said "Aviation" is cyclical, not every single airline :wink:

If AC starts to tank that bad, guys will go to other airlines...maybe, its all speculative for me to say. But I do believe the industry as a whole has to eventually rebound back, or I'll just become philatelist :lol:
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