Air Georgian Cadet Program

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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#1 Post by Jimmy_Hoffa » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:27 am

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bravowhiskey
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#2 Post by bravowhiskey » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:54 am

You got your commercial multi Ifr for free did ya?
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#3 Post by Class 1 Instructor » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:44 am

This is pretty much the European model now. There are a couple of large schools with formal agreements with the airlines. When the airlines hire they go exclusively to the pool of completed candidates from the school they have a commercial agreement with.

The airlines love it because they get a lot of say in how the student is trained and they can ensure there will always be a surplus of candidates. The schools love it because they can dangle the "airline job" carrot in front of the wannabe with SJS and charge top dollar for the training.

The thing I find interesting is why all the training is done in the US ? Anyway this is the future for flight training in Canada.....
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#4 Post by Norwegianwood » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:17 am

bravowhiskey wrote:You got your commercial multi Ifr for free did ya?

Nothing is FREE................

"If you are chosen to participate in the Cadet Program you will be given a conditional offer of employment by Air Georgian Limited and Air Canada. You will be sent to the FlightSafety Academy at Vero Beach, Florida for a 48-week training course. The cost of this course is approximately US$60,000 and is to be paid for by the candidate. This amount includes full tuition and housing for the duration of the course."
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#5 Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:24 am

I don't much of an issue with this. From someone who did all their flight training privately and then instructed, did the medivac thing, 704 and now 705, I'm not that green behind the ears anymore. 5 years ago I got my first commercial job as an instructor. Last year I got hired at a 705 company, so it was 4 years from first job to airline job. I can't recall how much I spent on my licenses, but it was a good chunk of change. If the costs were comparable to what Georgian is asking and I was GUARANTEED a job as an F/O at Georgian and then GUARANTEED a job at Air Canada 4 years later, I would have seriously considered it. As it stands right now I'm trying to get on with AC. It sure would be nice to look forward to a guaranteed job there at the end of the tunnel. As long as Georgian hasn't included the hidden cost of a bond in that $60,000 quote and disguised it as training costs, you're just paying for your training which you would have to anyways with the bonus of a job at the end of the line.
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Air Georgian Cadet Program

#6 Post by cj555 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:44 am

I am looking for some information regarding the Air Georgian Pilot Cadet Program:

Program Details
Air Georgian has launched a Pilot Cadet Program designed to attract and train new pilots.

The program is funded by the student who pays $60K USD to train at Flight Safety Academy in Vero Beach, Florida.

Upon completion of training, candidate will become a Beech 1900D FO for Air Georgian (Air Canada Express banner) for a minimum of 4 years.

After a minimum of 4 years employment with Air Georgian, the pilot can be offered employment with Air Canada.

Link
http://www.airgeorgian.ca/recruitment-p ... ogram.html

Questions
As an aspiring airline pilot (currently working as an accountant) looking to enter the aviation industry, I am wondering:
  • What are the pros / cons of this program versus attending a traditional flight school / going up north?

  • Is there anyone who has gone through this program who can comment on their experience?
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#7 Post by esp803 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:55 am

I suspect once everything was accounted for I spent that or more doing everything at Selkirk over two years. No job at the end. Airlines are not my cup of tea. I'm curious if this would be eligible for student loans and grants? I know one of the major reasons I went to Selkirk was to cash in on all the grants YTG offers students. I'll refrain from judging this system until I see how it pans out for the first few waves.

I'd like to see an apprenticeship program for new pilots. Red seal and all.

E
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#8 Post by Fanblade » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:01 am

This is brand spanking new.

The gentleman in the left seat of the photo is an AC pilot. A very entrepreneurial one at that. Nice guy and owns a few aviation related companies.

If he is involved I would say it is legit.

What I would look into is the terms of the "conditional" job offer for Georgian and AC. Anything less than a guaranteed job at both, assuming you jump through the required hoops, is a meaningless promise.

If you get more info let us know. This has been happening around the world with varying results. KLM for esample has an excellent program. Ryan Air? They are basically empty promises.

Tread carefully but it may be a good opportunity assuming the "conditions" are solid.

Keep in mind. If you don't make it to a mainline carrier you will make far more as an accountant. Even then the break even point will be a decade or two down the road.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#9 Post by cj555 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:34 am

Thanks for the comments Fanblade.

I am well aware of the financial implications of this decision, I can assure you. This decision is based purely on passion, being a pilot is something I have always wanted to do. I have done alot of research, and am well aware of what I am getting into. Now, I am just exploring my options on how best to enter the industry. This seems like this could be a good option.

My concerns are:
  • The cost ($60K is insanely expensive). I estimate traditional flight school training will cost $40K to $50K.
  • Upgrade time. Going straight from CPL to FO on the B1900 means that upgrading will take a very long time. Even after 4 years at Georgian, I would be suprised if candidates of this program have been upgraded to Capt on the B1900. When you're a new CPL, PIC is king. But then again, the first 4 years after CPL are not very glamourous anyways, and being an FO at AG isn't anything to be ashamed of.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#10 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:51 am

As mentioned above, the devil is in the details, what are the terms, what are the guarantees, if any. It states you have to remain employed with Georgian for 4 years and have a good employment record to be considered for AC, so essentially a 4 year probation period and I doubt they will forego the traditional 12 months probation after completion of line indoc, once at AC, better be on your best behavior.
That being said, if you are guaranteed a job with Georgian after the training, I'd say there are much worse ways to get into aviation.
40-50k, I suspect that is bare bone commercial, not including a multi-ifr and also assuming you block time for building time, as that was the cost 17-18 years ago, I've heard plan for around 70k. 48 weeks also sounds full time, so no working for a living during this, might want to factor those cost in as well. The training is also going to likely focus on two crew in a sim, so that's some valuable experience there. Would I have, yep, no question, is this good for the supply curve, nope, there goes the shortage. Crap I knew something was going to happen to screw it all up
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#11 Post by Mig29 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:52 am

Fanblade wrote:What I would look into is the terms of the "conditional" job offer for Georgian and AC. Anything less than a guaranteed job at both, assuming you jump through the required hoops, is a meaningless promise.
Exactly.

Which brings me to more questions....Is the hiring process for AC (after 4 years at GGN) going to be the same? Sim, psych evaluation, etc??? If so, then how can anyone promise you the job at AC? Or even GGN? What if you can't pass the sim eval on the 1900? I'm just asking questions here, not judging. In fact, if I was 18 again, and had this chance, I would seriously consider it. You got to Florida for a year or so, then spend 4 years flying 1900 and by the time you are 22-23yrs old, you hopefully get a gig as a F/O or RP with biggest airline in Canada! :D
Fanblade wrote:If you get more info let us know. This has been happening around the world with varying results. KLM for esample has an excellent program. Ryan Air? They are basically empty promises.
KLM, Lufthansa even BA had programs like this. LH academy has just suspended all further training due to surplus of cadets waiting in line for a job with LH.

But, one big critical difference between these academies and this partnership with AC & GGN is that these academies evaluate you thoroughly medically and psychologically, as well they do a lot more intense testing than you will ever see with this school in Vero Beach, Florida. (Again, this is just a presumption, need more info). I believe they even toss you in full motion airliner sim before you commence your PPL/CPL training.

My point is, this "almost" guarantees you employment with an airline afterwards, as there are no surprises. But here, it leaves a lot of questions to be answered.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#12 Post by Mig29 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:56 am

cj555 wrote: My concerns are:
  • The cost ($60K is insanely expensive). I estimate traditional flight school training will cost $40K to $50K.
  • Upgrade time. Going straight from CPL to FO on the B1900 means that upgrading will take a very long time. Even after 4 years at Georgian, I would be suprised if candidates of this program have been upgraded to Capt on the B1900. When you're a new CPL, PIC is king. But then again, the first 4 years after CPL are not very glamourous anyways, and being an FO at AG isn't anything to be ashamed of.

Cost? It's actually not that bad, if there are going to provide full CPL/MIFR & ATPL exams for you.

Getting upgrade at GGN after 4 years there. Well, say 250hrs when you come back from Florida, plus 4 years at GGN (average 4 x 750hrs/year = 3000hrs) puts you well in the time required for internal upgrade at GGN. Problem is you gotta find some PIC time to validate your ATPL.

And yes, as a new comer to the industry, spending few years flying 1900 for Air Canada connector is not that bad at all man :wink:
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#13 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:58 am

Mig, I believe some of those questions are answered here;
STEP 2
If you are selected for an interview you will be interviewed in Toronto by a panel of Air Georgian and/or Air Canada representatives. You will also undergo a series of cognitive and psychological tests to determine your suitability as a candidate.
STEP 3
If you are chosen to participate in the Cadet Program you will be given a conditional offer of employment by Air Georgian Limited and Air Canada. You will be sent to the FlightSafety Academy at Vero Beach, Florida for a 48-week training course. The cost of this course is approximately US$60,000 and is to be paid for by the candidate. This amount includes full tuition and housing for the duration of the course.

STEP 4
Within 90 days of successfully completing the full training program course, the candidate will become a Beechcraft 1900D First Officer with Air Georgian Limited. The new employee will fly a full schedule (approx. 700 hours per year) and will remain employed at Air Georgian for a minimum of four years. Air Georgian’s offer of employment will be conditional upon successful completion of the Flight Safety training program and the Air Georgian initial airline pilot training program.

STEP 5
After completing a minimum of four years of employment with Air Georgian, the candidate will be hired by Air Canada as a Pilot. Air Canada’s offer of employment will be conditional upon the candidate maintaining a good work record with Air Georgian (i.e. good disciplinary and training records).
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#14 Post by MartinB » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:00 am

I'm starting to wonder if I should get babtized. I was just complaining to a friend in England that I wish we had a cadet program in Canada. And then I went to do my daily read of the avcanada website and I find this. I am signing up for this the moment I finish High School. I'm super happy now! :smt040
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#15 Post by Mig29 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:03 am

Good for you Martin!! Good luck :lol:


Thanks mbav8r, didn't read the entire job/training profile yet. Well, that answers man questions....Damn, I wish I was 18 again (but I'm baptized already! :lol: )
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#16 Post by North Shore » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:06 am

As always, the devil is in the details! There's an awful lot of wiggle room in there for the companies involved - lots of 'if' and 'conditional' etc...

Caveat Emptor, as the Romulans said!
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#17 Post by cj555 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:22 am

mbav8r wrote:Mig, I believe some of those questions are answered here;
STEP 2
If you are selected for an interview you will be interviewed in Toronto by a panel of Air Georgian and/or Air Canada representatives. You will also undergo a series of cognitive and psychological tests to determine your suitability as a candidate.
This raises some questions about the cognitive and psychological tests.

I see from the website, they will use the "computerized pilot aptitude screening tests."

http://www.epst.com/com/compass.htm

I wonder how difficult these tests are? Is there any way you can prepare in advance to get an idea of how well you will do, and what your chances of success might be?

Talk about an emotional rollercoaster ride: You get selected for an interview, and are then facing a barrage of completely unknown cognitive and psychological tests which stand between you and your dream. Wow.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#18 Post by Fanblade » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:30 am

cj555 wrote:Thanks for the comments Fanblade.

I am well aware of the financial implications of this decision, I can assure you. This decision is based purely on passion, being a pilot is something I have always wanted to do. I have done alot of research, and am well aware of what I am getting into. Now, I am just exploring my options on how best to enter the industry. This seems like this could be a good option.

My concerns are:
  • The cost ($60K is insanely expensive). I estimate traditional flight school training will cost $40K to $50K.
  • Upgrade time. Going straight from CPL to FO on the B1900 means that upgrading will take a very long time. Even after 4 years at Georgian, I would be suprised if candidates of this program have been upgraded to Capt on the B1900. When you're a new CPL, PIC is king. But then again, the first 4 years after CPL are not very glamourous anyways, and being an FO at AG isn't anything to be ashamed of.
As was stated above 60k doesn't sound bad. Again find out what it is based on. If it is based on " realistic" hours to acquire licences or the minimum hours for licencing. Very few do it in the minimum hours. With the requirement to do well in testing even less likely.

If the job puts you in line for the next AC job after 4 years at Georgian? Who cares about PIC time. AC has had 200 hour wonders in the past.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#19 Post by Fanblade » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:42 am

cj555 wrote:
Talk about an emotional rollercoaster ride: You get selected for an interview, and are then facing a barrage of completely unknown cognitive and psychological tests which stand between you and your dream. Wow.
Not as bad as failing the tests after spending 60k and 5-10 years of your life.

A word of caution here as well. If it is the AC test? More than half are turned away from employment. Not that they fail. AC interviews way more than they need and take the highest marks. So it is competitive.

If the conditions of employment include entering into the normal hiring process after 4 years at Georgian? The conditions are meaningless. It amounts to nothing more than a guaranteed interview. Ask a Jazz pilot how many were rejected with guaranteed interviews.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#20 Post by cj555 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:15 pm

Fanblade wrote: Do the conditions of employment include entering into the normal hiring process after 4 years at Georgian? The conditions are meaningless. It amounts to nothing more than a guaranteed interview. Ask a Jazz pilot how many were rejected with guaranteed interviews.
STEP 5
After completing a minimum of four years of employment with Air Georgian, the candidate will be hired by Air Canada as a Pilot. Air Canada’s offer of employment will be conditional upon the candidate maintaining a good work record with Air Georgian (i.e. good disciplinary and training records).
This leads me to believe that being hired at Air Canada is guaranteed as long as you have maintained a good work record during your 4 years at Air Georgian.

It would be very misleading if they post this on their website (which implies that you have a guaranteed job at AC), but then after 4 years make you go through the full AC interview process.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#21 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:24 pm

STEP 2
If you are selected for an interview you will be interviewed in Toronto by a panel of Air Georgian and/or Air Canada representatives. You will also undergo a series of cognitive and psychological tests to determine your suitability as a candidate.
Which might lead one to conclude the above step will be close to or exactly the current interview process at AC, minus the, "tell me a time where you had a disagreement on the flightdeck..."
Another brilliant move by AC, inject a steady supply of pilots willing to work for crap wages for the carrot of all carrots, spend 60gs and 8-10 years from now it will start to pay off, absolutely brilliant.
5 years from now, the first stream of cadets will enter the AC workforce, wait, when does your contract expire? Never mind I have an idea of when that is.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#22 Post by MartinB » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:51 pm

Mig29 wrote:Good for you Martin!! Good luck :lol:


Thanks mbav8r, didn't read the entire job/training profile yet. Well, that answers man questions....Damn, I wish I was 18 again (but I'm baptized already! :lol: )
Thanks! I wonder if I will be eligible for it if I get my ppl scholarship from cadets this summer.
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Re: Air Georgian Cadet Program

#23 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:58 pm

Can't see how it could hurt, might even give you something for your 800 word cover letter
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#24 Post by Old fella » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:00 pm

"GUARANTEED a job at Air Canada"

Sorry lads/lassies but I am an old goat but please note you are guaranteed "eff all" in the course of a lifetime. Only guarantee is at some point in time you will die - like us all.

:wink:
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Re: Buy Your Job at AC Now!

#25 Post by North Shore » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:15 pm

Don't forget Taxes, oldfella! it's death and taxes :lol:
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