Rouge F/A BS!

[CanadianEh]

Air Canada has sunk to new, despicable levels with Rouge and their treatment of new employees.

So get this, I was talking to a soon-to-be Rouge flight attendant and she told me that they are asking the incoming flight attendants to pay for half of their training which is about $1800(!!!). Instead of paying a lump sum, she was told that around $50 will be deducted off of their pay cheques for 3 years. She also mentioned that the contract has yet to be signed and that HR is basically saying "Sign on the dotted line and everything will sort itself out". When she asked HR what would happen if Rouge failed or if she wanted to leave before the 3 years, she was told they didn't have answer.

It seems like Air Canada is testing the waters in terms of "how low can you go" and "how much abuse will they take" with Rouge.

Disappointing.

[Ki-ll]

So why did this soon-to-be Rouge flight attendant agree to those conditions?

[Mig29]

That was exactly the same question I was about to ask
Why would you take this apparent b.s. offer from them?

[Krimson]

Same reason why a lot of pilots take jobs under similar conditions. Get to fly in the new fancy planes going to cool new places...

At least for the FAs it is not in the $10k+ range of *bonds*. Plus they are likely able to leave and get a job somewhere else bartending making similar money if they get bored of it.

Sad to hear this is what rouge will be....maybe if it happens to enough non-pilots someone will actually speak up and be able to change something.

[fanspeed]

It s almost as disgusting as the starting pay at AC and WJ!

[CanadianEh]

So why did this soon-to-be Rouge flight attendant agree to those conditions?

She's currently an FA at an airline where she is laid off half the year due to seniority and likes the prospect of something "stable"

All I'm getting at is that this type of move by management is almost predatory and just a holding-a-gun-to-your-head retention
tactic.

Same reason why a lot of pilots take jobs under similar conditions. Get to fly in the new fancy planes going to cool new places...

At least for the FAs it is not in the $10k+ range of *bonds*. Plus they are likely able to leave and get a job somewhere else bartending making similar money if they get bored of it.

Sad to hear this is what rouge will be....maybe if it happens to enough non-pilots someone will actually speak up and be able to change something.

Exactly! Good point

[Ki-ll]

Get to fly in the new fancy planes going to cool new places...

Then we can't blame anyone but ourselves for the scene in canadian aviation industry about which a lot of people are crying about.

[BTyyj]

It's simple supply and demand. Economics 101. If AC was having trouble finding the workers to fill these jobs, they would have to increase the salaries. Evidently however, they're not.

Although being a F/A is in some ways a skilled job, the training isn't too costly or difficult to acquire for the company, allowing them to hire whoever and continue lowering salaries.

[andy_mtl]

I have a copy of the letter that they send you and if you accept you sing it and send it back.

Pay is 22.99$ a hour 75h a month, that world out to abou 20600$ annually plus per diems and over time and if you are the in flight director , you get a extra 10% so 3$ a hour more.
Per diems are not paid for turns.

This works out to be close to 30k a year.
And , oh yeah, passes on AC start 6 months into the job.
However the actual salary... Is below poverty line.

Having been a FA for charter airlines for 6 years now, I d say that is a slap on the face to
Whoever actually enjoys this profession.
I hope this was for me my last winter as a FA, but still, this contract is a offense.

I would like to take any of those VP, COO , CEO, on a charter flight with 29 inches of seat pitch, and 189 ever so classy passengers always coming up with new ways to make your life miserable.
After the second or third meal tray they would get thrown at then I m sure they would reconsider such cheap pay.

Tho whomever got the job offer, think twice before signing it,and ask about uniform , cause it is not specified, but hey they are charging you 39$ a month for 36 months for training, now add to that Another 800-1000 $ for uniforms... And soon you ll be paying them to go to work!

Andy

[Krimson]

Pay is 22.99$ a hour 75h a month, that world out to abou 20600$ annually plus per diems and over time and if you are the in flight director , you get a extra 10% so 3$ a hour more.
Per diems are not paid for turns.

$20k/year living in Toronto? That is really sad. You shouldn't have to count on per diems to have a livable salary. I hope they do something about those conditions.

There was rumour at Georgian of putting a monetary value (pay deduction) on AC flight passes a while back. I hope they are not seeing the passes as a benefit to justify the below-poverty pay.

[TheStig]

It's simple supply and demand. Economics 101. If AC was having trouble finding the workers to fill these jobs, they would have to increase the salaries. Evidently however, they're not.

You've hit the nail on the head. Being a Flight Attendant is no longer a career, it is a job. Airlines aren't looking for FA's to work for them for 35+ years anymore, this is true for any service oriented position. How many people work at the GAP or Subway for their entire career?

I agree being a Flight Attendant isn't always easy as passengers can be rude, long days/nights are typical, and weather/mechanical issues can make life challenging, but aside customer service the only knowledge requirements are speaking a second language and knowing how to open a door (for which extensive training is provided). The pay is garbage, but I have no doubt Air Canada with fill these positions easily, look at the quality of flight attendants Porter has found for similar wages? Once the novelty of laying over in Athens, Venice, etc wears off many of Rouge's FA's will no doubt leave and find better paying jobs, but if they learn to enjoy the airline life style and stay a bit longer that's fine too, but this will never turn into the job that senior mainline flight attends currently enjoy (ie DB pension, decent pay and amazing schedules).

[Old fella]

It's simple supply and demand. Economics 101. If AC was having trouble finding the workers to fill these jobs, they would have to increase the salaries. Evidently however, they're not.

You've hit the nail on the head. Being a Flight Attendant is no longer a career, it is a job. Airlines aren't looking for FA's to work for them for 35+ years anymore, this is true for any service oriented position. How many people work at the GAP or Subway for their entire career?

I agree being a Flight Attendant isn't always easy as passengers can be rude, long days/nights are typical, and weather/mechanical issues can make life challenging, but aside customer service the only knowledge requirements are speaking a second language and knowing how to open a door (for which extensive training is provided). The pay is garbage, but I have no doubt Air Canada with fill these positions easily, look at the quality of flight attendants Porter has found for similar wages? Once the novelty of laying over in Athens, Venice, etc wears off many of Rouge's FA's will no doubt leave and find better paying jobs, but if they learn to enjoy the airline life style and stay a bit longer that's fine too, but this will never turn into the job that senior mainline flight attends currently enjoy (ie DB pension, decent pay and amazing schedules).

Well Jesus and f--- Stig

Hard to understand(but I see your point). FA salary at this New AC Rouge is just terrible - nothing less, just plain horse shit. I mean a person(F/A) in a widebody aircraft heading to points in Europe and beyond commands less than 30K per year. One of my youngins is just entering the medical profession(ok a few letters after her name and a prefix Dr.) she will get nothing less that 150K per year as a start. There are a good many with Dr. before their name so no big effing deal believe me.

There is some responsibility on a B767 heading to the wide yonder as compared to GAP/Subway---- call centers jobs yet wages are the same........ just plain shit. Hope AC Rouge has difficulty getting people or better still their jobs as FA becomes a revolving door.

[TheStig]

Hard to understand(but I see your point). FA salary at this New AC Rouge is just terrible - nothing less, just plain horse shit. I mean a person(F/A) in a widebody aircraft heading to points in Europe and beyond commands less than 30K per year. One of my youngins is just entering the medical profession(ok a few letters after her name and a prefix Dr.) she will get nothing less that 150K per year as a start. There are a good many with Dr. before their name so no big effing deal believe me.

There is some responsibility on a B767 heading to the wide yonder as compared to GAP/Subway---- call centers jobs yet wages are the same........ just plain shit. Hope AC Rouge has difficulty getting people or better still their jobs as FA becomes a revolving door.

No need to curse at me, just trying to paint an accurate picture of the state of the industry. Air Canada isn't competing with Pan Am circa 1960 anymore, the air travel business has turned into a commodities business, the market (especially the segment Rouge is targeting) is driven by cost pressures. On Expedia, the lowest price wins, right?

It is designed to be a revolving door, and, according to the original poster a 3 year revolving door. The pilots carry the bulk of the burden of responsibility, and the real outrage (in my opinion of coarse) is the fact the there will be 767 FO's earning $48/hour at Rouge.

I'm glad your daughter will be starting at $150K, she deserves every penny of it as she's earned it.

Does anyone here know what Canjet's pay scales start at? How about Sunwing? Porter? Transat? JetBlue? Alliegent? How much do the guys loading bags for Swissport or Menzies earn? It seems that the low wages that Air Canada is paying to new ramp personal, check-in staff, and flight attendants are outrageous to some people, not because they feel they are below industry standard, but because it's Air Canada offering them.

[Old fella]

Hard to understand(but I see your point). FA salary at this New AC Rouge is just terrible - nothing less, just plain horse shit. I mean a person(F/A) in a widebody aircraft heading to points in Europe and beyond commands less than 30K per year. One of my youngins is just entering the medical profession(ok a few letters after her name and a prefix Dr.) she will get nothing less that 150K per year as a start. There are a good many with Dr. before their name so no big effing deal believe me.

There is some responsibility on a B767 heading to the wide yonder as compared to GAP/Subway---- call centers jobs yet wages are the same........ just plain shit. Hope AC Rouge has difficulty getting people or better still their jobs as FA becomes a revolving door.

No need to curse at me, just trying to paint an accurate picture of the state of the industry. Air Canada isn't competing with Pan Am circa 1960 anymore, the air travel business has turned into a commodities business, the market (especially the segment Rouge is targeting) is driven by cost pressures. On Expedia, the lowest price wins, right?

It is designed to be a revolving door, and, according to the original poster a 3 year revolving door. The pilots carry the bulk of the burden of responsibility, and the real outrage (in my opinion of coarse) is the fact the there will be 767 FO's earning $48/hour at Rouge.

I'm glad your daughter will be starting at $150K, she deserves every penny of it as she's earned it.

Does anyone here know what Canjet's pay scales start at? How about Sunwing? Porter? Transat? JetBlue? Alliegent? How much do the guys loading bags for Swissport or Menzies earn? It seems that the low wages that Air Canada is paying to new ramp personal, check-in staff, and flight attendants are outrageous to some people, not because they feel they are below industry standard, but because it's Air Canada offering them.

If you took my note as "cursing" at you I apologize for that. My comment"horseshit" was not directed at your post but to the topic on FA wages - which I personally find hard to grasp(30k for an FA in a widebody heading where ever and $48/hr for a B767 right seat position). Then again blame is all around - travellers demand bottom feed fares to fly and get royally pissed when we have to pay more than taxi cab fares to fly all points and direction of the compass. Very sad but this is the new airline industry........

[WhatThe?]

Just want to point out that pilots are payed "PER Flight Hour". Which is generally about 75-84hrs a month. Not the 160 hrs a regular job gives you. If you are not in the aviation industry most people don't understand this.

New FA's are paid to train, usually with no previous experience.
I had almost 6000hrs of flying and a massive student loan from 10 yrs ago that I am still paying off today. I can assure you that I don't get paid accordingly. However I do love my job at AC. BUT I will do everything in my power to discourage my 2 kids from ever becoming pilots. That says alot about where the aviation industry has gotten to.

Remember to smile, it's a good day!

[AirFrame]

A number of years ago I got talking to one of the pilots while waiting between flights. The subject came around to salary, and he said that the starting salary at his airline (Southwest, I think? it's been a few years) was $18K/year. That was below the full-time salary at McDonald's at the time. I thought that was pretty startling.

Of course, context. As you say, pilot's don't work 160 hour (ish) months like the rest of us. And they do get to layover in interesting ports of call. And they do get to build time. So maybe there are non-monetary benefits to the job as well, but still... It's scary how little the pilots up front could be making on my next flight.

[WhatThe?]

Once again to clarify:

Pilots get paid Per Flight Hour!

It however doesn't account for ALL the time we are at work, doing work related activities but not flying. If the flight is delayed and we haven't pushed back, we sit and wait on Our time. A delay usually just results in a shorter layover at the destination.

I work a minimum of 160hrs a month. But I'm away from home for half the month.

Our duty day is legal to 14hrs, and many companies take advantage of that. We may only fly a couple of hours in that time! The larger the airline, the better the conditions.

[Deerinheadlights]

I will probably get hammered for this but the truth is AC(whoever) does not want career F/A they dont want career Station attendants.They want cheap labour that fits the minimum requirements that TC allows. They use the allure of layovers in fancy destinations. Working75hrs a month. Cheap company travel to sucker people in. The truth of paid for 75hrs and how much of your time it takes to get that. The fun of layovers in Regina( sorry for picking on you) are truths that only come to light after you start. They want the turnover. 3-5 years and gone. Any more and you become a burden on system. By then you make to much $$, you have learned the collective agreement. You have realized they have been screwing you since day one. They would love for you to pull the plug and go.

No matter what you think,they see F/A as unskilled labour. When was the last time you saw a 60 year old serving you at a nice dinner location.
No matter what you think, they see Rampie as unskilled labour too. Have you ever seen a 60 year old Rampie at Swissport or whoever.

Cheapest ticket rules the airways for 95% of travellers.

AC "get in, let us abuse you and get out" simple!

These positions are jobs while we look for careers, not careers. We all have the choice to except them or not. And not to worry if you don't the government will allow AC to go offshore and bring someone in on "temp worker" leg. to fill the spot.

[yycflyguy]

I will probably get hammered for this but the truth is AC(whoever) does not want career F/A they dont want career Station attendants.They want cheap labour that fits the minimum requirements that TC allows. They use the allure of layovers in fancy destinations. Working75hrs a month. Cheap company travel to sucker people in. The truth of paid for 75hrs and how much of your time it takes to get that. The fun of layovers in Regina( sorry for picking on you) are truths that only come to light after you start. They want the turnover. 3-5 years and gone. Any more and you become a burden on system. By then you make to much $$, you have learned the collective agreement. You have realized they have been screwing you since day one. They would love for you to pull the plug and go.

No matter what you think,they see F/A as unskilled labour. When was the last time you saw a 60 year old serving you at a nice dinner location.
No matter what you think, they see Rampie as unskilled labour too. Have you ever seen a 60 year old Rampie at Swissport or whoever.

Cheapest ticket rules the airways for 95% of travellers.

AC "get in, let us abuse you and get out" simple!

These positions are jobs while we look for careers, not careers. We all have the choice to except them or not. And not to worry if you don't the government will allow AC to go offshore and bring someone in on "temp worker" leg. to fill the spot.

Yup. Spot on.... same could be said for pilots too, just substitute "fancy layovers" with shiny airplanes and it's same-same. With the creation of DC pension for new hire pilots management is admitting that they wont have 100% of their pilots around for their entire career.

[Sea2Sky]

"Deerinheadlights" I will probably get hammered for this but the truth is AC(whoever) does not want career F/A they dont want career Station attendants.

Bingo. And why is that? Because of the sense of entitlement of many who have chosen to make this a career. ICs make 70K+/year without overtime, yet many still complain incessantly. I've been told by several that the general sentiment is that they should make as much as the FO... at the least. The privelige of making an AC FA wage, which is considerably higher than what is paid in other North American airlines, has come to be EXPECTED, not earned.

Having said that, 20K IS pretty dispicable. Good thing they don't work on tips; they'd be probably be paid even less. But it begs the question: why take the job? I knew that I was going to get cornholed for 2 years, but at least I was going to get a kiss afterwards. Why take a job with no light in sight??